美國(guó)人的提問(wèn)：蘇聯(lián)女人的地位和今天的俄聯(lián)邦女人有什么不同嗎？

What was the status of women like in the Soviet unx and how is it different from today?

2021-05-03 yzy86 17524 0 3 收藏糾錯(cuò)&舉報(bào)

譯文簡(jiǎn)介

這句來(lái)自某一首很有名的俄國(guó)詩(shī)歌，作者我不記得了，但完全能代表女人在俄羅斯發(fā)揮作用： “既能攔住狂奔的馬，也能硬闖著了火的屋子?！?

正文翻譯

（圖解：《工人和集體農(nóng)莊女莊員》是紀(jì)念藝術(shù)的里程碑，是“蘇聯(lián)時(shí)代的典范和象征”）

I remember many years ago seeing a picture of Worker and Kolkhoz Woman

我還記得很多年前看到過(guò)一張《工人和集體農(nóng)莊女莊員》的照片。

Sure, people can call it cheesy, propaganda, etc.. But to me, it got me thinking about the status of women in the USSR. Even though women are not as physically strong as men, were they equal in every other aspect in society? It seems like the government wanted women to know they can be a “worker” and not confined to household jobs. And what about women in modern Russia? I have a feeling it has gone in the opposite direction with the rise in social conservative sentiment.

當(dāng)然了，人們會(huì)說(shuō)這個(gè)雕像虛偽又惡俗，還說(shuō)它的存在只是為了宣傳什么的…可這個(gè)雕像卻激發(fā)了我去思考蘇聯(lián)的婦女地位。盡管女性在身體上不如男性強(qiáng)壯，但她們?cè)谏鐣?huì)中的其他領(lǐng)域是否得到了平等對(duì)待？似乎蘇聯(lián)政府希望讓女性明白，她們也可以成為一個(gè)“工人”，而不用局限于家庭主婦。那么現(xiàn)代俄羅斯女性的情況又如何呢？我有種感覺(jué)，隨著社會(huì)中保守情緒的上升，事態(tài)已經(jīng)向著相反的方向發(fā)展了。
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So how were women viewed in Soviet times and how is it different than today?

所以，蘇聯(lián)時(shí)期對(duì)女性的看法和今天有何不同呢？

評(píng)論翻譯

Hellerick
I don't feel any difference between the current and the Soviet situation.

我沒(méi)感覺(jué)到當(dāng)今和蘇聯(lián)時(shí)期的情況有什么不同。

On one hand the Soviet rule imposed on men and women same rights, and women can take important positions (e.g. most judges in Russia are women), on another hand our culture has strong 'gender-specific expectations' on how and what people should be doing. Nobody forces you to follow it, but it would feel weird if you don't. So women were and are expected to be feminine.

一方面，蘇聯(lián)的統(tǒng)治給男人和女人強(qiáng)行賦予了同等的權(quán)利，而且女人可以出任重要職位（比如說(shuō)，俄羅斯的大部分法官都是女性），另一方面，我們俄羅斯的文化“針對(duì)特定性別應(yīng)當(dāng)做什么以及應(yīng)該如何行事的期望”是根深蒂固的。不會(huì)有任何人去強(qiáng)迫你遵循它，但如果你不遵循，就會(huì)感覺(jué)怪怪的。所以過(guò)去也好現(xiàn)在也好，都還是會(huì)期望女人要像女人。

RiceFar
Interesting, so it looks like the traditional female expectations still existed, but it wasn’t emphasized as much during Soviet times, but it still existed nonetheless

（樓主）有意思，所以看起來(lái)，傳統(tǒng)上對(duì)女性的期望仍然存在，但在蘇聯(lián)時(shí)期并沒(méi)有大力強(qiáng)調(diào)這些，盡管如此它卻仍然存在。

It is not "emphasized as much" today either.
It just the position "Do you expect men to be strong?! You're a nazi pig!!!" remains weird and foreign to us.

（層主）在今天也并沒(méi)有“大力強(qiáng)調(diào)”。
只不過(guò)在我們眼中，這種“你居然會(huì)去期望男人強(qiáng)悍？！你這頭納粹豬！！”的態(tài)度還是很奇怪很陌生的。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處

maxvol75
in soviet movies, women very often represented as hierarchically superior, i.e. directors (служебный роман, москва слезам не верит) or at least as perfectly self-sufficient.

在蘇聯(lián)電影中，女人經(jīng)常會(huì)以等級(jí)體制中長(zhǎng)官的身份出現(xiàn)，比如在《辦公室的故事》、《莫斯科不相信眼淚》這樣的電影中飾演主任，至少自給自足是不在話下的。

（圖解：在《辦公室的故事》中，女主角的身份為統(tǒng)計(jì)局局長(zhǎng)）

the ussr was indeed among the first states in which women could vote

（回復(fù)）蘇聯(lián)的確是第一批賦予女人投票權(quán)的國(guó)家。

policy-wise definitely yes. moreover, many men were and some still are infantile and being taken care of by women. this was also depicted in many soviet movies (любовь и голуби).

（回復(fù)）在政治上絕對(duì)是這樣的。此外，無(wú)論過(guò)去還是現(xiàn)在，很多男人都是很幼稚的，也一直是由女人在照顧。這一點(diǎn)在很多蘇聯(lián)電影中也有所表現(xiàn)，比如《愛(ài)情與鴿子》。

not quite tbh, as someone pointed out, it was expected to be a good worker, mother and caretaker at once.

（回復(fù)）老實(shí)說(shuō)不盡然，正如某人指出的，會(huì)期望女人同時(shí)成為優(yōu)秀的工人、母親和看護(hù)者。

Ozkedko
Women play a large role in our society. There is a joke about it:
Most of our people are raised by same-sex couples - mom and grandmother.

（鄂木斯克）女人在我們的社會(huì)中發(fā)揮了很重要的作用。關(guān)于這個(gè)問(wèn)題還有個(gè)笑話：
我們中的大多數(shù)人都是由同性夫婦養(yǎng)大的：媽媽和奶奶。

Only women can choose the way how she will spend her life and many choose householding, why not, it's a decent job.

只有女人能選擇自己的生活方式，很多人選擇了做家庭主婦，為什么不呢，這是一份體面的工作

To understand the Russian women let's look at Kartunkova. She is the most viewed KVN player of the last decade and I've seen the interview with a discussion about why she is so popular. And resume looks like this

想要理解俄羅斯女人，我們可以去看看Kartunkova(凱丘恩克娃)。她是上一個(gè)十年中觀看人數(shù)最多的KVN選手，我看過(guò)一個(gè)訪談，其中討論到了她如此受歡迎的原因。梗概如下：

（圖為凱丘恩克娃）

everyone recognizes her as his mother, wife, mother-in-law, grandmother, neighbor, etc. This is a collective image of a Russian middle-aged woman.

每個(gè)人都會(huì)把她看是自己的母親、妻子、岳母、祖母、鄰居等等。而這是俄羅斯中年婦女這個(gè)集體的形象。

So just imagine forcing such a woman to seat home if she doesn't want to =) Or do something she doesn't want=) Women feel like a regular part of society so any encroachment on equality is perceived as barbarism and savagery

所以可以想象一下，這樣一個(gè)女人，在她不愿意的情況下強(qiáng)迫她待在家里，或是強(qiáng)迫她做一些她不愿意做的事，女人感覺(jué)上是社會(huì)中固定的一份子，所以任何侵犯平等的行為，都會(huì)被認(rèn)為是野蠻和不開(kāi)化的行徑。

It depends on what you mean under conservatism. Usually, it means a tendency to keep past order. Our past is socialistic. The old generation mentality is Stop sitting without work! The factories are idle!.
For Russians: Обколються своими комплюктерами, лучше бы на завод шли!

這種事情取決于你怎么定義保守主義。通常而言，這個(gè)詞指的是一種維護(hù)舊秩序的傾向。而我們的過(guò)去是社會(huì)主義。老一代人的腦回路是：別再干坐著不工作了！那些工廠都閑置著呢！
對(duì)俄羅斯人來(lái)說(shuō)：把你那電腦扔了吧，最好還是去工廠！

All factories is idle, only gitarists in country! Go to work, mth fucker!

（回復(fù)）所有的工廠都閑置著，這個(gè)國(guó)家里盡是些玩吉他的！趕緊去工作啊，狗娘養(yǎng)的們！
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處

Our state is very conservative, people too. But not in the way you preserve conservativism in the West.

（回復(fù)）我們國(guó)家可是非常保守的，我們國(guó)家的人也是一樣。但和你們西方維持保守主義的方式還是不同的。

erzyabear
Soviets saw women as an easy way to increase labor force so USSR pioneered many pro-women measures: paid maternity leave, free daycares. After WWII it wasn’t uncommon for women to hold managerial positions.

（莫爾多維亞共和國(guó)）在蘇聯(lián)人眼中，女人是一個(gè)能輕松增加勞動(dòng)力的法子，所以蘇聯(lián)敢為天下先，開(kāi)創(chuàng)了很多有利于女性的舉措：帶薪產(chǎn)假、免費(fèi)的托兒所。二戰(zhàn)以后，蘇聯(lián)女人擔(dān)任管理職務(wù)也并不鮮見(jiàn)。

That’s still true nowadays, however, the everyday sexism is more common then it used to be in USSR. Many managers think it’s a valid reason not hire a woman because she has kids or just because she’s in ‘fertile’ age. The pay gap is also more prominent than in the West

直到今天也是一樣，不過(guò)，日常生活中出現(xiàn)的性別歧視要比蘇聯(lián)時(shí)普遍。很多管理人員認(rèn)為，不雇傭有孩子的女性（或者，只是因?yàn)樗幱凇坝g”）是有正當(dāng)理由的。薪資差距也比西方更明顯。

In fact, everything is very complicated. In Soviet times, women were indeed given equal rights with men and were given even more rights. With all this, in society, an attitude was brought up to a woman as to someone special, beautiful, fragile, etc. A man should help a woman carry heavy bags, should open a door for a woman, should hold a door, etc. In most families, it was and is believed that a woman should work but at the same time should be a mother. In modern society, things have become even more complicated. The post-feminist period has come when some women themselves do not want to be treated like a woman. It is also often found that a woman in the same position is paid less than a man. There was no such thing in the USSR. This appeared with the advent of the market economy. Everything is connected with the fact that, having become pregnant, a woman is legally entitled to maternity leave of at least 1.5 years, as well as with the fact that, as I said, a woman is perceived not only as an employee, but also as a mother, which means that she can often take time off from work to take care of the child or sit with him on sick leave (in Russia, parents have the right to take sick leave if they are caring for a sick child, the duration of sick leave can be up to 14 days or more).

（回復(fù)）事實(shí)上，這一切非常復(fù)雜。蘇聯(lián)時(shí)期真的賦予了女人和男人平等的權(quán)利，甚至比男人還多。有了這些，就在社會(huì)中培養(yǎng)出了一種對(duì)女人的態(tài)度，即把女人視為特別的、美麗的、脆弱的等等。男人應(yīng)該幫女人拿很重的包，應(yīng)該為女人開(kāi)門(mén)或留門(mén)等等。在大部分家庭中，無(wú)論是過(guò)去還是現(xiàn)在，都認(rèn)為女人應(yīng)該在工作的同時(shí)成為一位母親。在現(xiàn)代社會(huì)中，情況就變得更復(fù)雜了。后女權(quán)時(shí)期已經(jīng)到來(lái)，有些女人不希望別人把她們當(dāng)成女人。同樣的職位，女人拿的薪水比男人少，這種情況也是很多見(jiàn)的。而在蘇聯(lián)時(shí)期，是不存在這種事情的。隨著市場(chǎng)經(jīng)濟(jì)的到來(lái)，才會(huì)出現(xiàn)這種事。一切都和一個(gè)事實(shí)有關(guān)：法律規(guī)定，女性在懷孕后享有至少1.5年的產(chǎn)假；外加這個(gè)事實(shí)：如我所言，女人不僅被看成雇員，而且會(huì)被看成母親，這就意味著她通常都可以為了照顧孩子離崗，或是請(qǐng)病假陪伴孩子（在俄羅斯，如果父母有一個(gè)生著病的孩子要照顧，那就有權(quán)請(qǐng)病假，病假的時(shí)長(zhǎng)高達(dá)14天或更多）。

AFAIK either parent can take parental leave to care after a newborn in Russia, not only mother. Same goes for taking sick leave to care for a kid. Just to note, maternity leave is paid by the state and not by the employer so it’s not only about the “market economy”.

（層主）據(jù)我所知，俄羅斯的父母為了照顧新生兒，不只是母親，父母中的任何一方都可以休產(chǎn)假。為了照顧孩子而請(qǐng)病假也是同理。要注意的是，帶薪產(chǎn)假是由國(guó)家買(mǎi)單的，而不是雇主，所以這就不是“市場(chǎng)經(jīng)濟(jì)”能解釋的了。

The position of a woman is a really weird mix of archaic country-side and orthodox Christian traditions, romantic era chivalric romances and early 20 century feminists’ achievements. OB-GYN at an appointment in local hospital treat women like a piece of meat. The society pushes them towards having kids early and sacrificing education and career. Many women would be happy to return to work as early as possible but for the majority the childcare for babies under 18 months is prohibitively expensive. It’s a long road for all of us

女性的地位真是一個(gè)奇怪的組合，古代鄉(xiāng)村和東正教傳統(tǒng)、浪漫時(shí)代的騎士傳奇，以及20世紀(jì)早期的女權(quán)主義成就。在當(dāng)?shù)蒯t(yī)院接受預(yù)約的婦產(chǎn)科醫(yī)師把女人當(dāng)成一塊肉來(lái)對(duì)待。全社會(huì)推著她們?cè)缭缟⒆硬奚逃褪聵I(yè)。要是能盡可能早地回去工作，很多女人會(huì)很樂(lè)意的，但大部分不滿18個(gè)月的嬰兒幼托服務(wù)都貴得出奇。對(duì)我們所有人來(lái)說(shuō)，這都是一條漫漫長(zhǎng)路。

Genethebunnyqueen
Then again, women who dont want kids are treated differently.

（莫斯科州）而且，不想生孩子的女人會(huì)被區(qū)別對(duì)待的。

With our pension system, not having children = living off other people's kids income

（回復(fù)）以我們這種養(yǎng)老金制度，不要孩子就等于靠別人家孩子的收入過(guò)活。

MossyTundra
I’m not sure about Soviet times, but women today still are expected to fit into the traditional gender role. Let men carry things, look pretty, wear make up, care for children etc.
Women can be independent, but it’s still the role of mother and caretaker that’s deeply ingrained.

（莫斯科）蘇聯(lián)時(shí)期是什么情況我無(wú)法確定，但今天的女性仍被期望著去充當(dāng)傳統(tǒng)的性別角色。讓男人替自己搬東西，打扮得美美的，化妝，帶孩子，諸如此類(lèi)。
女性可以獨(dú)立，但母親和看護(hù)者的角色仍然是根深蒂固的。

Ferrari_Cold
The part from one of famous russian poems, I don't remember its author, fully represents womens' role in Russia at all: "Коня на скаку остановит, В горящую избу войдет"

這句來(lái)自某一首很有名的俄國(guó)詩(shī)歌，作者我不記得了，但完全能代表女人在俄羅斯發(fā)揮作用：
“既能攔住狂奔的馬，也能硬闖著了火的屋子?！?/b>

rawberryfields
Women were viewed as equals to men so they could get any education and good jobs and there were lots of propaganda posters promoting literacy, education, working and so on for the women. But still there were and still are lots and lots of patriarchal ideas in men’s heads. Still I’d say we had it much better than say US. I feel like we kind of went a bit backwards from there and said patriarchal ideas still didn’t go anywhere plus religion based misogynistic ideas are a thing too. In nowdays Russia there’s of course lots and lots of problems and feminism is a thing for a reason but this soviet legasy makes it much better. I’m really not a fan of USSR but women enpowering is definitely a thing they were doing right.

女人被認(rèn)為和男人平等，所以她們可以接受任何教育并得到很好的工作，而且以前有很多推動(dòng)女人去識(shí)字、教育和工作等的宣傳海報(bào)。但在男人心中仍然存在著很多很多的父權(quán)思想。不過(guò)我還是要說(shuō)，我們可比美國(guó)好多了。我是感覺(jué)我們?cè)谶@方面比從前有所倒退，而且父權(quán)思想仍然沒(méi)有消逝，再加上基于宗教的厭女思想也不容小覷。當(dāng)然，今天的俄羅斯存在大量的問(wèn)題，女權(quán)主義的出現(xiàn)是有原因的，但蘇聯(lián)留下的這份遺產(chǎn)使情況好了很多。我真的不是蘇聯(lián)的粉絲，但賦予女性權(quán)利這件事他們絕對(duì)是做對(duì)了。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處

mlt-
How about 3 year maternal leave? I wonder if you can get that much in the world now.

三年的產(chǎn)假要怎么說(shuō)？我很想知道，你有沒(méi)有可能在當(dāng)今世界享受到這樣的產(chǎn)假。

That’s quite impressive, i dont think that happens in the US, it’s definitely not a mandate by law. But I think that’s going back to conservative culture. The reason why they get 3 years off is because they are primarily seen as child caretakers rather than a working class citizen

（樓主）這太讓人印象深刻了，我覺(jué)得這在美國(guó)是不可能出現(xiàn)的，而且這個(gè)絕對(duì)不是法律強(qiáng)制的。但我覺(jué)得這個(gè)可以歸因到保守的文化。他們能得到3年的假期，是因?yàn)樗麄兪紫缺豢闯烧樟闲『⒌娜?，而非屬于工人階級(jí)的公民。

seoul47
We have an old joke just on this matter: "Feminist women in the West struggle for women's rights, to be able to work in the mines, while in USSR feminists struggle to achieve right to NOT work in the mines!"

關(guān)于這個(gè)問(wèn)題，我們有一個(gè)很老的笑話：“西方的女權(quán)主義者為了婦女權(quán)利而斗爭(zhēng)，是為了能去礦上工作，而蘇聯(lián)的女權(quán)主義者展開(kāi)斗爭(zhēng)，則是為了能不去礦上工作！”

Katatoniczka
Here in Poland I feel that the gender equality that got ingrained in some aspects of life for several decades is one of the good remnants of the Soviet times. Of course I’m not Russian so I can’t speak for the ussr but I feel like the impact it left on other countries also speaks volumes. My grandmothers were born in 1945 and 1938 and they both had respectful lives both as workers and mothers. Not sure about the other but one of them also got a several week long state paid sanatorium holiday every year during which her husband got to stay at home with the kids while they were still young, so it seems to me that she could have much more rest from childcare than a contemporary Polish woman in a 2-income household has...

我感覺(jué)在我們波蘭這里，幾十年來(lái)生活方方面面根深蒂固的性別平等是蘇聯(lián)時(shí)代的優(yōu)良遺產(chǎn)之一。當(dāng)然了，我不是俄羅斯人，所以我無(wú)法為蘇聯(lián)代言，但我覺(jué)得蘇聯(lián)留給其他國(guó)家的影響也很能說(shuō)明問(wèn)題了。我的兩位祖母分別出生于1945年和1938年，她們無(wú)論身為工人還是母親，都過(guò)著受人尊敬的生活。我不確定另一位的情況，但她們其中一人每年還能得到由國(guó)家買(mǎi)單的長(zhǎng)達(dá)幾周的療養(yǎng)假，在此期間，她的丈夫可以留在家里陪年紀(jì)尚小的孩子，所以在我看來(lái)，相比于雙職工家庭中的當(dāng)代波蘭婦女，她在帶孩子時(shí)能得到的休息要多出許多...

ptitz
Russia never went through the transformative process of the counter-culture movements of the 60s/70s that took place in the rest of the world. So they are still kind of stuck in that period, with rigid gender roles, and some pretty archaic societal norms and attitudes. I think the late 80s/90s were especially damaging, since after the unx's collapse the society stepped away from marxism-influenced feminist dogmas, and more towards traditionalism/conservatism. and the cultural landscape had been stagnating since.

（歐盟）俄羅斯從未經(jīng)歷過(guò)六七十年代發(fā)生在全世界其他國(guó)家的反文化運(yùn)動(dòng)帶來(lái)的轉(zhuǎn)型過(guò)程。所以他們?nèi)匀豢ㄔ谀莻€(gè)時(shí)期，保有著僵化的性別角色以及一些相當(dāng)古老的社會(huì)規(guī)范和心態(tài)。我覺(jué)得八十年代末和九十年代的破壞力尤其大，因?yàn)樵谔K聯(lián)崩潰后，全社會(huì)擺脫了受影響的女權(quán)教條，然后就更傾向于傳統(tǒng)主義和保守主義了。而文化領(lǐng)域的局面自那時(shí)起就一直停滯不前了。

美國(guó)人 蘇聯(lián) 女人地位今天 俄聯(lián)邦

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美國(guó)人的提問(wèn)：蘇聯(lián)女人的地位和今天的俄聯(lián)邦女人有什么不同嗎？

美國(guó)人的提問(wèn)：蘇聯(lián)女人的地位和今天的俄聯(lián)邦女人有什么不同嗎？