為什么西歐人不像過去那樣大量移民到美洲?
Why do Western Europeans not emigrate to America in massive numbers like they used to?
譯文簡介
我們不想移民到美國，因為西歐的生活更好。你可以來意大利、法國、德國和英國這四個國家親眼看看。
正文翻譯
Why do Western Europeans not emigrate to America in massive numbers like they used to?
為什么西歐人不像過去那樣大量移民到美洲?
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為什么西歐人不像過去那樣大量移民到美洲?
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Europeans are a crafty bunch not burdened by the idea “our way is the best way”. This is a legacy of the Roman Empire really, whenever Romans found something that was better abroad they took a good hard look, injected their own insight and adopted it without question.
This is how the Roman Legion looked like before they met the Samnites, who fought in maniples
In late 19th and early 20th century Europe found the American way of doing things was superior to how Europeans did things. They took a good, hard look, copied what was useful, improved what could be improved and implemented changes that made Europe simply superior to America for anyone who isn’t a professional duchebag. Some still move the the states because their specific skillset is better suited to what America has to offer and there’s good money to be made for them specifically, but you won’t see European working class folks going anywhere anytime soon. Western Europe is unequivocally the best place to be if you’re anywhere from poor to upper middle class and certainly good enough for all the rest.
Toma? Vargazon, 無神論踐行者
歐洲人是一群狡猾的人，他們并不為“我們的方式就是最好的方式”這一理念所累。這確實是羅馬帝國的遺產(chǎn)，無論何時羅馬人在國外發(fā)現(xiàn)更好的東西他們都會認真研究，注入自己的見解，毫無疑問地采納。
圖：這是羅馬軍團在遇到薩謨奈特人之前的樣子，薩謨奈特人以戰(zhàn)團作戰(zhàn)
在19世紀末和20世紀初，歐洲發(fā)現(xiàn)美國的做事方式優(yōu)于歐洲人。他們仔細觀察，復制有用的東西，改進可以改進的東西，實施改變，使歐洲在任何即使不是專業(yè)人士眼中都比美國優(yōu)越。
一些人仍然遷往美國，因為他們的特殊技能更適合美國提供的東西，而且他們特別能賺到很多錢，但你不會看到歐洲工人階級很快離開任何地方。如果你是窮人到中上層階級的任何階層，西歐無疑是最好的地方，當然對其他所有人來說也都足夠好。
That… feels simplistic. If that were the case, then why doesn’t everybody in the world just move to Europe?
I think a better answer is simply that emigrating is a lot of work and people only do that whenever they have a clear push to do so.
感覺被簡單化了。如果是這樣的話，為什么世界上的人不都搬到歐洲去呢?
我認為更好的答案是，移民是一項繁重的工作，人們只有在有明確推動力的時候才會這么做。
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Regular news about migrant ships sinking with hundreds of deaths in sight of European shores answers your question in more ways than one.
關(guān)于移民船在歐洲海岸附近沉沒、數(shù)百人死亡的定期新聞從多個方面回答了你的問題。
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They confirm my point, if anything: the environment in their home countries gives them a clear push to emigrate. The lack of similarly sized scores of people from other developed countries (Japan, South Korea, the USA…) also corroborates my statement.
他們證實了我的觀點，如果說有什么不同的話:他們本國的環(huán)境給了他們移民的明確動力。
來自其他發(fā)達國家(日本、韓國、美國……)的類似人數(shù)的缺乏也證實了我的說法。
Language too. I guess we would indeed see some Americans moving to Europe if the language was the same, and immigration was easy. Then again, restricted immigration is one of the reasons Europe keeps being a good destination. Social security nets would burst quickly otherwise.
語言也是問題。我想，如果語言一樣的話，我們確實會看到一些美國人搬到歐洲去，移民也更容易。
然而，限制移民正是歐洲一直是一個好目的地的原因之一。否則，社會保障體系將迅速崩潰。
I believe it was Publius Ovidius Naso (Ovid) who once wrote “Fas est et ab hoste doceri” which is a loose translated as “It is right to learn, even from the enemy.” which showed how the Romans felt about learning.
我記得是奧維德(Publius Ovidius Naso)寫過《Fas est et ab hoste doceri》，大致翻譯為“學習是正確的，即使是向敵人學習?！闭故玖肆_馬人對學習的看法。
Yeah, but when the Chinese did some of that we saw fire breathing hatred and accusation that they copied everything of value. You see, Americans don’t need to learn anything.
是的，但是當中國人這么做的時候，我們看到了針對他們的仇恨和指責，他們復制了所有有價值的東西。
你看，美國人不需要學習任何東西。
Well the US did a lot of copying and then adaptation before becoming the reference. The Japanese did the same and so did a number of countries who have come on in bounds and leaps notably China. It is standard practice.
在成為參考之前，美國也進行了大量的復制和適應。日本也做了同樣的事情，許多國家也做了同樣的事情，尤其是中國。這是標準做法。
Can’t agree more. We all start somewhere, but eventually when one learned enough they cut their own path in order to grow. There are already countries and companies copying Chinese practices already.
不能同意更多。我們都從某個地方開始，但最終當一個人學得足夠多時，他們會開辟自己的道路來成長。已經(jīng)有一些國家和公司在模仿中國的做法。
I think the complaints about China copying things is about stolen intellectual property.
我認為針對中國模仿的抱怨是關(guān)于XX獲取知識產(chǎn)權(quán)方面的。
Using the term, Intellectual Property, is a way to bash China. All countries copied from others at one time or another. The west copied many key Chinese inventions, like explosives, paper, porcelain, tea, printing, silk, etc. At the time, Chinese emperors also considered the technologies are strategically valuable, and anyone caught exporting them are punished by death. Closer to our time, Americans copied much of industrialization techniques from the British. Later, Americans, Russians, British, and French copied German technologies, and even captured German scientists in the process. Heck, I’m sure China will soon complain about others violating its IP, since there are more Chinese patents filed annually than anyone else.
使用“知識產(chǎn)權(quán)”一詞是抨擊中國的一種方式。所有的國家都曾經(jīng)抄襲過其他國家。西方復制了中國的許多重要發(fā)明，如炸藥、紙張、瓷器、茶葉、印刷術(shù)、絲綢等。
當時，中國的皇帝也認為這些技術(shù)具有戰(zhàn)略價值，任何出口這些技術(shù)的人被發(fā)現(xiàn)都會被處以死刑。在更接近我們的時代，美國人從英國那里復制了很多工業(yè)化技術(shù)。
后來，美國人、俄羅斯人、英國人和法國人復制了德國的技術(shù)，甚至在這個過程中俘虜了德國科學家。見鬼，我相信中國很快就會抱怨其他國家侵犯其知識產(chǎn)權(quán)，因為中國每年申請的專利比其他任何國家都多。
But if the west does it it’s OK!!!
但是如果西方這樣做了，那是沒問題的! /笑
For hungarian working class people. It’s easier to go to middle or west european countries. If something goes wrong, they can easly go home but to change a whole continent it’s a bigger issue. If what I recall from history is right then most euopeans went to the US to get out from the feudal society or war. Today neither appears in the EU. I’m not sure how many ukrainians leave their country but my guess they either migrate inside their own country or go to another, culturaly similar country.
作為匈牙利工人階級人民，去中歐或西歐國家比較容易。如果出了問題，他們可以輕松回家，但要跨越整個大陸，這是一個更大的問題。
如果我對歷史的記憶的是正確的，大多數(shù)歐洲人去美國是為了擺脫封建社會或戰(zhàn)爭。如今，這兩種情況都沒有出現(xiàn)在歐盟。
我不確定有多少烏克蘭人離開了他們的國家，但我猜他們要么移居到自己的國家其他地方，要么去了另一個文化相似的國家。
In late 19th and early 20th century Europe found the American way of doing things was superior to how Europeans did thing
That’s false, actually. Capitalism went from Europe to US. Socialism got invented in Europe, instituted in USSR, copied to Western Europe as Social Democracy (despite that existed) and things were settled.
There isnt anything that Europe copied from US in those centuries. Even the ideas in American Revolution were developed in France during Enlightenment.
“19世紀末和20世紀初，歐洲發(fā)現(xiàn)美國的行事方式優(yōu)于歐洲”
這話是錯的。資本主義從歐洲走向了美國。社會主義在歐洲發(fā)明，在蘇聯(lián)建立，復制到西歐成為社會民主主義，事情就是這樣。
在那幾個世紀里，歐洲沒有抄襲美國的任何東西。即使是美國革命時期的思想也是在法國啟蒙時期發(fā)展起來的。
American salaries are still crazy high even after accounting to cost of living and lot of worlds best companies are still in US.
None of EU countries come close. They don't migrate because US is not accepting them anymore just because of their whiteness, it's impossible for 99.99% people according to current immigration systems.
即使算上生活成本，美國的工資仍然高得離譜，許多世界上最好的公司仍在美國。
沒有一個歐盟國家能做到這一點。他們不移民是因為美國不再僅僅因為他們是白人就接納他們，根據(jù)目前的移民制度，這對99.99%的人來說是不可能的。
After a certain point more money enters the law of diminishing returns. This is different for everyone, but the overwhelming majority of people agree regular vacations, affordable healthcare, safe streets, quality food, reliable employment and reliable retirement combined trump a little extra in your pocket every month.
By some silly factor too.
過了某個點，更多的錢就進入了收益遞減規(guī)律。這個點對每個人來說都不一樣，但絕大多數(shù)人都同意，定期的假期、負擔得起的醫(yī)療保健、安全的街道、優(yōu)質(zhì)的食物、可靠的工作和可靠的退休生活加在一起，比每月口袋里的一點額外收入更重要。
There's that, but his notion of salaries in the U.S. is also wildly exaggerated. He's looking at prestigious employers like Google, which can afford to be sextive, in a few very specific areas of the country where the costs of living are correspondingly, absurdly high.
His idea of incomes in the U.S. sounds more like it's coming from the kind of spiel a recruiter would give, not reality on the ground here in the actual U.S.
確實是這樣，但他對美國工資的看法太夸張了。他的視角是以谷歌這樣的知名雇主出發(fā)的，但這些地區(qū)的生活成本也相應地高得離譜。
他對美國收入的看法聽起來更像是來自招聘人員的那種夸夸其談，而不是美國的實際情況
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Great news, this, that “American salaries are … crazy high”. Having worked in the corporate world here in the U.S for 25 years I've yet to see who's garnering these “crazy high” salaries, besides the denizens of corner offices.
Can you let me in on the secret — where are all these crazy high salaries to be had?
這消息棒極了，“美國人的工資……高得離譜”。
在美國的企業(yè)界工作了25年，我還沒有看到誰獲得了這么“離譜”的高薪，除了那些角落辦公室的員工。
你能告訴我秘密嗎——這些高得離譜的薪水都到哪里去了?
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Come to “the high tech" where 200k is seen as normal. Not only in Silicon Valley, but in many other places. 80$-90$ per hour as contractor in no-state-tax cities is amazing if the person is young and don't need healthcare benefits.
I'm talking about people who are highly skilled who don't have opportunities in these countries how much ever skill they have. :)
I, as a programmer can't make much (like literally less than 100k) even if I work at Google Germany where as the same Google pays 300k USD in SFO if I prove my worth. Many highly skilled professions like doctors etc are also paid double or triple compared to many developed countries.
來看看“高科技”，在那里20萬（年薪）被視為正常。不僅在硅谷，而且在許多其他地方也是如此。
在沒有州稅的城市里，作為承包商每小時80 -90美元，如果這個人是年輕人，不需要醫(yī)療保險，那真是太棒了。
我說的是那些高技能的人，在自己國家沒有太多自己的技能可以賺取高新的機會。
作為一名程序員，如果我在德國谷歌工作，即便我能證明自己的價值，谷歌只會支付10萬美元年薪，相比之下，在舊金山同樣的谷歌可以支付30萬美元的年薪。
與許多發(fā)達國家相比，許多高技能職業(yè)，如醫(yī)生等的薪水是他們的兩倍或三倍。
I work in tech and have been for decades. Those high salaries are the norm only in hot tech hubs, where — suprise — costs of living are also very high. And, even there, you'd have to be very skilled and very in demand to fetch $80-90/hr. I could post today for a mid-level developer position for half that and have several eager applicants by end of day.
Look also at the cost of housing around Silicon Valley, Seattle, and Austin, TX, and you'll see why salaries have to be that high. In most places, they're not. And, guess what? You are paying your health insurance and deductibles, which in Germany you don't have. You're paying not just Federal but also state and local taxes, in addition to property and sales taxes. And you must keep a car in order to get to work, which in most European cities you don't have to rely on.
If you have kids, up goes your health care costs, and you carry the cost of child care if you want to work.
This isn't the land of milk and honey over here. At my level of experience I'd have a higher standard of living in most European countries. Make sure you look at the whole picture.
我在科技行業(yè)工作了幾十年。只有在熱門科技中心，高工資才是常態(tài)，而令人訝異的是，那里的生活成本也非常高。而且，即使在那里，你也必須非常熟練，并且非常搶手，才能擁有80-90美元/小時。我可以在今天發(fā)布一個中級開發(fā)人員的職位，一半的薪資，一天之內(nèi)就會有好幾個熱切的申請人來申請。
再看看硅谷、西雅圖和德克薩斯州奧斯汀周圍的住房成本，你就會明白為什么工資必須這么高。在大多數(shù)地方不是這樣的。你猜怎么著?你要支付你的醫(yī)療保險和免賠額，這在德國是沒有的。你不僅要交聯(lián)邦稅，還要交州稅和地方稅，還有財產(chǎn)稅和銷售稅。
你必須要有輛車才能去上班，而在歐洲的大多數(shù)城市，你根本不需要靠車去上班。如果你有了孩子，你的醫(yī)療保健成本就會上升，如果你想工作，你就需要承擔兒童看護的成本。
這里不是牛奶和蜂蜜的土地。以我的經(jīng)驗來看，我在大多數(shù)歐洲國家的生活水平都要高一些。
確保你看到了整個畫面。
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There are better places to be upper middle class. For example, in Latin america. You get to live in a place with good weather, cheap labor cost (you can have a cleaning lady every day, a baby sitter every day), good food and so on.
The catch here is that it is more difficult to become upper middle class. It is just less likely.
有更好的地方可以成為中上階層。例如，在拉丁美洲。你可以住在一個天氣好的地方，廉價的勞動力成本(你可以有一個清潔女工，有一個保姆)，好的食物等等。
這里的問題是，成為中上階層更加困難，可能性更小。
As an Asian I agree. For upper middle class folks Id say the US is the place to be if you want to make even more money.
But if you just want to enjoy life, Latin America or Asia is the place to be.
作為一個亞洲人，我同意。對于中上階層的人來說，如果你想賺更多的錢，我會說美國是你該去的地方。
但如果你只是想享受生活，拉丁美洲或亞洲是最好的選擇。
Yes, like in Venezuela or Myanmar.
是的，就像在委內(nèi)瑞拉或緬甸。
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Like Brazil and Thailand.
Venezuela and Myanmar are shit holes outliers
比如巴西和泰國。
委內(nèi)瑞拉和緬甸是屎坑。
As of late April, every American who wants the vaccine has received it. Unlike most of Europe. So, there’s that.
截至4月底，每個想要疫苗的美國人都得到了疫苗。不像大多數(shù)歐洲國家。所以，這就是事實。
Here’s the reason why:
原因在于：
圖：全球各國/地區(qū)疫苗生產(chǎn)和出口情況，綠色為國內(nèi)使用量，紫色為出口量
歐盟是世界公民，允許大量疫苗出口。美國和英國是民族主義混蛋，禁止出口直到他們得到服務。一個人可以為此感到高興，但也沒有什么值得驕傲的。
Dousing the fire in your own home, rather than drying out the well spraying water on your neighbours’ would have been a better strategy.
You can condemn the USA and the UK for vaccine nationalism but their life is back to normal due to their can do attitude and fast vaccine rollout, and thats a success story!
6 months later, am still locked at home in Germany and reading about politicians quibbling over how much more regulations should be rolled out! I’d rather be happy than foster a false sense of pride.
先撲滅自己家里的火，而不是把井水噴到鄰居的身上會是一個更好的策略。
你可以譴責美國和英國的疫苗民族主義，但他們的生活已經(jīng)恢復正常，因為他們的態(tài)度和快速疫苗推出，這是一個成功的故事!
6個月過去了，人們?nèi)岳г诘聡募抑?，讀到政客們在爭論應該出臺多少監(jiān)管措施! 我寧愿快樂也不愿培養(yǎng)一種虛假的自豪感。
Nothing wrong with being a nationalist ‘prick’. The US just isn’t exporting their vaccine technology to everyone else. That’s the main problem.
做一個民族主義“混蛋”沒什么錯。美國只是沒有向其他國家出口他們的疫苗技術(shù)。這是主要問題。
Being a nationalist prick I can tollerate, but bragging about it is a tad far.
作為一個民族主義的混蛋，我可以忍受，但吹噓它有點太過了。
Not only that, but vaccination rates in America have dropped off. Every one who is going to get it has got it. But were still stock piling it.
Ignorant Americans are fueling the pandemic while the rest of the world burns for the vaccine.
Deplorables.
不僅如此，美國的疫苗接種率也下降了。每個想得到它的人都得到了它，但仍在囤積。
無知的美國人正在助長這一疫情，而世界上的其他人卻在為疫苗而瘋狂。
可悲。
Much of the immigration from Europe to the New world (and Africa) was motivated by adverse conditions in Europe at the time — wars, conscxtion, discrimination, oppression, poverty, famine — which no longer are present. As mentioned by others, this was an individual decision based on individual circumstances.
In addition, immigration laws in the USA were much less restrictive in the early part of the 20th century than subsequently, affecting the relative hardship of emigrating compared to perceived benefit of relocation.
Opportunities for low skilled workers have also progressively decreased since mid 20th century.
大部分從歐洲移民到新大陸(和非洲)的動機是當時歐洲的不利條件——戰(zhàn)爭、征兵、歧視、壓迫、貧窮、饑荒——現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)不復存在。
正如其他人提到的，這是基于個人情況的個人決定。此外，美國移民法在20世紀早期的限制比后來要少得多，這影響了移民的難度。
自20世紀中期以來，低技能工人的機會也在逐漸減少。
A: We don’t see the point.
We’re no longer starving or suffering under tyrants. We have healthcare, social safety nets, strong unxs and sensible wages. Sure, we would maybe get better pay in the US and lower taxes, but would instead have to pay the same money (if not more) in service fees.
So we really don’t see the point of mass migration to the US.
We also suspect that we would not like it there. The US mentality seems too alien to us.
Besides, you have practically closed the border.
Krister Sundelin, 電子學習生產(chǎn)商(2020-至今)
A:我們看不出有什么意義。
我們不再在暴君的統(tǒng)治下挨餓受苦。我們擁有醫(yī)療保健、社會保障網(wǎng)絡、強大的工會和合理的工資。當然，我們在美國可能會得到更好的薪酬和更低的稅收，但我們將在小費上不得不支付相同的錢(如果不是更多的話)。
所以我們真的看不到大規(guī)模移民到美國的意義。我們也懷疑我們不會喜歡呆在那里。美國人的心態(tài)對我們來說似乎太陌生了。
而且，你們實際上已經(jīng)關(guān)閉了邊境。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
The US seemed like the future, once. Not any more.
美國一度似乎代表著未來，但再也不是了。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
The United States, a country with a great future behind it.
美國，一個有著偉大未來的國家。
You’re not wrong, in the 1980’s I wanted to be an American so much. Now ? nah.
你說的沒錯，在20世紀80年代，我非常想成為一個美國人。現(xiàn)在?算了吧。
Who on earth would want to live in a country where you could be shot at any time, where the food you eat and feed to babies contains toxic chemicals,where you could possibly not even have clean water? The America that I knew and loved fifty years ago has long gone.Sacrificed on the altar of greed.
誰會愿意生活在一個隨時可能被射殺的國家，一個你吃的和喂給嬰兒的食物都含有有毒化學物質(zhì)的國家，一個你甚至可能沒有干凈的水的國家?
50年前我所了解和熱愛的美國已經(jīng)一去不復返了, 犧牲在了貪婪的祭壇上。
Because it’s no longer possible to claim vast amounts of land and natural resources for free (once the native inhabitants had been killed or driven off).
因為再也不可能免費索取大量土地和自然資源了(當?shù)鼐用癖粴⒑蝌?qū)逐)。
Not to mention that any increased pay is swallowed up in healthcare insurance and costs.
更不用說任何增加的工資都被醫(yī)療保險和成本吞噬了。
Nobody cares. This is a serious question?
No …it’s a plant to bash America. So gleeful are the Euers to bash their brother. As ifWe don’t do it enough ourselves? Give me a break.
沒有人在乎。這是個嚴肅的問題嗎?
不是，不過是一連串抨擊美國的戲法。歐洲人痛擊他們的兄弟該有多高興啊。
好像我們自己做得不夠似的?得了吧。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
It wasn’t really a scathing answer. I basically agree with the points he raised. Wages are a bit higher in the US but so are a lot of costs and the culture is quite different. There’s just not that many pros to the cons
這并不是一個嚴肅的問答。
我基本上同意他提出的觀點。美國的工資要高一些，但成本也很高，文化也很不同。
這里只是沒有那么多的利和弊。
Exactly…I mean, cities like Boston, Washington, New York, Philadelphia or San Francisco have lot of culture, and places to discover, but none of these have same opportunities like European cities have. I mean, I live in Prague, city rich with culture, nature and history, but 2 hours in any direction, I can be in another very rich city with different feel. Different cultures, languages and habits are what makes Europe (and I hope someday one European country) so unique. We are so different, yet because of history so similar in so many aspects.
我的意思是，像波士頓、華盛頓、紐約、費城或舊金山這樣的城市有很多文化和地方值得探索，但是這些城市都沒有歐洲城市那樣的機會。
我的意思是，我住在布拉格，這座城市有著豐富的文化、自然和歷史，但無論往哪個方向走兩個小時，我都可以到達另一座非常悠久的城市，有不同的感受。不同的文化、語言和習慣使歐洲如此獨特。
我們是如此的不同，但因為歷史，我們在很多方面是如此的相似。
USA is nice for holiday. I like rural USA. The cities are boring compared to European cities and work in the USA? I don't know about that. It feels like it is better in Europe too. The USA seems big to me, if not huge. It's too big to handle for me personally.
美國是度假的好地方。我喜歡美國農(nóng)村。與歐洲城市相比，美國的城市興許很無聊?我不知道。
感覺在歐洲更好。對我來說，美國似乎很大，如果不是很遼闊的話。
但這對我個人來說太大了。
The economics benefits of Europeans moving the the US in the late 1800s were staggering. I read that for southern Italian immigrants moving to the US, their pay was 11 times higher than in Italy!
19世紀末，歐洲人遷居美國，其經(jīng)濟效益令人震驚。我讀到，移民到美國的意大利南部移民的薪水是意大利的11倍!
o emigrate to the USA because life is better here in Western Europe. Come and see for yourself, through Italy, France, Germany and all four countries of the United Kingdom. The diversity of cultures is fabulous, why would anyone want to move to somewhere like USA?
我們不想移民到美國，因為西歐的生活更好。你可以來意大利、法國、德國和英國這四個國家親眼看看。
文化的多樣性是驚人的，為什么會有人想搬到像美國這樣的地方?