為什么中國古代的王子/公主不去國外學(xué)習(xí)和提高自己?
Why didn’t ancient China''s princes/princesses go to foreign countries to learn and improve themselves?譯文簡介
作為唐朝的大使,他率領(lǐng)唐朝附屬國家的軍隊(duì)(吐蕃派了1200名士兵,后來又派了8000名士兵)進(jìn)攻戒日王朝(Harsha Empire),并將印度北部夷為平地。戒日王朝皇帝因褻瀆唐朝天皇而被王玄策逮捕,并被送往首都長安。
正文翻譯
作為唐朝的大使,他率領(lǐng)唐朝附屬國家的軍隊(duì)(吐蕃派了1200名士兵,后來又派了8000名士兵)進(jìn)攻戒日王朝(Harsha Empire),并將印度北部夷為平地。戒日王朝皇帝因褻瀆唐朝天皇而被王玄策逮捕,并被送往首都長安。
他的罪名是扣留路過的唐朝大使。
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Did anyone else do this?
Mostly they stuck to their own traditions. The Classical Romans learnt a lot from the Greeks, but mostly by bringing teachers to them.
The only foreign knowledge that interested any Chinese was Buddhist teaching. Some monks went as far as India, most notably Xuanzang, whose achievements were also mythologised as Journey to the West.
See also Traditional China Resisted Modernisation, about why they were unready to change.
有沒有其他人這樣做過?
大多數(shù)情況下,他們會(huì)堅(jiān)持自己的傳統(tǒng)。古羅馬人從希臘人那里學(xué)到了很多東西,但主要是通過給他們帶來老師學(xué)習(xí)的。
中國人唯一感興趣的外國知識是佛教。一些僧侶甚至遠(yuǎn)赴印度,最著名的是玄奘,他的成就也被神話為《西游記》。
另見傳統(tǒng)中國抵制現(xiàn)代化,關(guān)于他們?yōu)槭裁床粶?zhǔn)備改變(鏈接)。
Song Cheng (孫 辰), machine translation
I want to say that it is too big, and the journey abroad is too far away. The ancient traffic was not developed, so the Chinese emperor did not form a tradition of far-reaching. Today, the area of ??many well-known countries is still far less than a province in China. There are dozens of provinces in China.
公元元年,中國皇帝統(tǒng)治的土地面積達(dá)到了609萬平方公里,超過西歐所有國家的總和。這片土地上的人民和國王都是中國皇帝的臣民。
我想說的是,它太大了,,出國的路途太遠(yuǎn)了。古代交通不發(fā)達(dá),所以中國皇帝沒有形成影響深遠(yuǎn)的傳統(tǒng)。如今,許多知名國家的面積仍然遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)小于中國的一個(gè)省,而中國有幾十個(gè)省。
原創(chuàng)翻譯:龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
公元元年,中國已經(jīng)使用了1500多年的成熟書寫系統(tǒng)。1500年來,漢字是孤獨(dú)的。中國高中以上學(xué)歷的人現(xiàn)在仍然可以閱讀兩千年前的書。直到兩千多年前,中國的皇帝還不知道哪個(gè)國家有文字系統(tǒng)。包括當(dāng)時(shí)中國最強(qiáng)大的敵人匈奴,他們都沒有文字可以記載。這些周邊國家沒有文字,怎么會(huì)有比中國更先進(jìn)的文化和知識呢?因此,中國皇帝沒有形成出國留學(xué)的習(xí)慣。具有諷刺意味的是,中國的許多鄰國幾千年來都在整體上使用中國文化和漢字。他們自己獨(dú)特的文字出現(xiàn)得很晚,但現(xiàn)在他們卻聲稱他們的文明比中國更古老.........而他們的史書都是用漢字記錄的。
公元元年,中國的人口已超過6000萬。這與今天的英國或法國人口相似。毫無疑問,和今天的中國一樣,中國是世界上人口最多的國家。中國周邊的國家通常只有幾十萬人口。中國的皇帝很忙,在生產(chǎn)力極低的時(shí)代,他不是僅僅享受著權(quán)力和稅收,還面臨著以穩(wěn)定的方式統(tǒng)治6000萬人的挑戰(zhàn)。要知道,中國2000多年的治理模式是集權(quán)的,不是貴族封建式的,皇帝要對6000萬國民中的每一個(gè)人負(fù)責(zé)。他們太忙了,否則政權(quán)就會(huì)滅亡。兩千多年來,中國經(jīng)歷了25個(gè)主要王朝和數(shù)百個(gè)小政權(quán)。所以他們沒有時(shí)間出國留學(xué),也無法向外國人學(xué)習(xí)如何治理這樣一個(gè)規(guī)模的國家。
2000多年前,中國皇室形成了不出國留學(xué)的模式,并一直延續(xù)到20世紀(jì)。事實(shí)上,直到中國的最后一個(gè)王朝,在清末,亞洲也沒有一個(gè)比中國更先進(jìn)的國家。中國只是被西方列強(qiáng)欺負(fù),而不是被鄰國欺負(fù)。當(dāng)日本向西方學(xué)習(xí),實(shí)現(xiàn)工業(yè)化并打敗中國時(shí),中國已經(jīng)到了最后一個(gè)王朝倒數(shù)第二任皇帝了。他只有20多歲,直到30多歲去世時(shí)才有孩子,但他有一個(gè)名叫載灃的同族兄弟已經(jīng)被送到歐洲學(xué)習(xí)。中國的末代皇帝是一個(gè)三歲的孩子,他是載灃的兒子。然而,在這個(gè)時(shí)候,皇帝制在中國已經(jīng)不受歡迎了。
10世紀(jì)以前的中國,其實(shí)在學(xué)習(xí)外部事物上非?;钴S。中國在2000年以前是如此龐大,但仍然不惜一切代價(jià)學(xué)習(xí)了中亞的馴馬技術(shù)和煉鋼技術(shù)。中國完全閉關(guān)鎖國可能是近三百年的事情。當(dāng)然,當(dāng)中國改革開放的時(shí)候,雖然很多人不愿意相信中國的成就,但是你仍然可以看到,在過去的40年里,中國已經(jīng)不是100年前的中國了。
Anderson Lin
The closest thing to this was that the members of the Aisin Gioro clan did study overseas during the last decades of Qing. The most famous example is Aisin Gioro Liangbi (良弼) who studied military in Japan for four years. But I suppose this is not what the question means by “ancient”.
與此最接近的是,愛新覺羅家族的成員在清朝最后幾十年確實(shí)在海外留學(xué),最著名的例子是在日本學(xué)習(xí)了四年軍事的愛新覺羅良弼,但我想這不是問題所說的“古代”的意思。
除此之外,我想不起有哪個(gè)中國朝代的王子/公主去外國“學(xué)習(xí)和提高”自己的經(jīng)歷。即使在極少數(shù)情況下,一個(gè)中華帝國被迫將人質(zhì)交給一個(gè)強(qiáng)大的鄰國,它也從未以此為借口。
Andy Liu
You can’t really blame Chinese on this, during her 2000 years’s history after Qin dynasty, China tried several times to explore if there are any other civilizations that could be on par with their level of civilization.
They sailed to Japan, and realized they were far more primitive and weaker than China at the time , and didn’t even have their own written language. Beyond Japan is ocean that no one could cross at that time. Chinese believed the earth was flat surrounded by oceans while the four corners of earth were on the back of four giant turtles.So China felt no threats from the east at all, who would think that sailing for 10 years maybe you could find another continent?
這真的不能怪中國人,在秦朝之后的2000年歷史中,中國曾多次嘗試探索是否還有可以與他們的文明水平相提并論的其他文明。
他們航行到日本,發(fā)現(xiàn)當(dāng)時(shí)的日本遠(yuǎn)比中國原始和弱小,那里甚至沒有自己的文字。在日本之外是當(dāng)時(shí)沒有人可以跨越的海洋。中國人認(rèn)為地球是平的,四面環(huán)海,而地球的四個(gè)角都在四只巨龜?shù)谋成?。所以中國根本感覺不到來自東方的威脅,誰會(huì)想到航行10年有可能會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)另一個(gè)大陸?
To China’s south, China tried their best to sail all the way down to Philippines and found nothing interesting and turned west to Eastern Africa 100 years before the whites did it. Unfortunately for china , General Zhenghe spent 7 times exploring the world and the most interesting thing he found was long neck deer(giraffes)
在中國的北方,只有野蠻人和冰雪。來自北方的商人也告訴中國人那里沒有什么東西可以看,也沒有什么可以學(xué)。
到了中國的南方,中國拼盡全力一路航行到菲律賓,也沒有發(fā)現(xiàn)任何有趣的東西。在白人之前的100年,中國就向西航行到了東非。對中國來說不幸的是,鄭和將軍花了7次探索世界,他發(fā)現(xiàn)的最有趣的東西是長頸鹿。
在中國的西方,中國人從一開始就知道有波斯帝國和印度帝國這樣的大國。大約1500年前,中國派出張騫試圖與波斯人建立聯(lián)系。他從100人開始,總共花了18年時(shí)間,回來時(shí)只剩下2人。后來,著名的玄奘花了大約20年的時(shí)間去了印度,經(jīng)過了許多野蠻人的領(lǐng)地和沙漠。他們和其他許多探險(xiǎn)家都得出結(jié)論:中國人和那些遙遠(yuǎn)的“野蠻人”之間有無盡的沙漠。由于漢唐兩代都可能是中國歷史上最強(qiáng)大的時(shí)期,他們在印度和伊朗所看到的并沒有比他們自己的文明更先進(jìn),甚至還要更糟糕。
One more very important reason is that China reached a very high level of civilizations earlier than many other civilizations and the changes of life prior to 1840 were very little. Though their multiple attempts to explore their world and based on their own comprehensive records of history, they might conclude that the rest of the world were too primitive and could not develop to a level that China needed to learn and look up to.
從他們對當(dāng)時(shí)受技術(shù)限制的世界的探索來看,中國自然會(huì)得出這樣的結(jié)論:沒有其他文明可以威脅到他們的生存,因此根本沒有什么可學(xué)習(xí)的。
另一個(gè)非常重要的原因是,中國比許多其他文明更早達(dá)到很高的文明水平,1840年以前的生活變化也很小。盡管他們多次嘗試探索自己的世界,并根據(jù)自己全面的歷史記錄,但他們可能會(huì)得出這樣的結(jié)論:世界其他地方太原始,無法發(fā)展到中國需要學(xué)習(xí)和仰望的水平。
Countries sent students to BETTER countries to learn .Like Japan sent students to China during Tang Dynasty, and to the west in the 1700s, China sent students to US since 1979. For a country that unfortunately thought herself the greatest country out there, Chinese never felt the need to learn from others.
馬可波羅寫了一本虛構(gòu)而夸張的書,講述了中國如何比任何歐洲人想象的都要先進(jìn)得多,不幸的是,對中國來說,直到 1800 年代,才有人告訴中國更先進(jìn)的文明是什么樣的。
國家總是把學(xué)生送到更好的國家去學(xué)習(xí),就像日本在唐朝派學(xué)生到中國,在 1700 年代派學(xué)生到西方,中國從 1979 年開始派學(xué)生到美國一樣。對于一個(gè)不幸地認(rèn)為自己是最偉大的國家的國家,中國人從來沒有覺得有必要向他人學(xué)習(xí)。
Qi Chen
On topic of the shape of earth, the ancient Chinese knows earth isn’t flat since 230BC. They have to build large scale dam and aqueducts, which require you to factor earth’s curvature into consideration.
However, they couldn’t confirm that earth is round because pacific ocean is hard to sail through and going the other direction is just takes too long.
關(guān)于地球的形狀,古代中國人從公元前230年就知道地球不是平的。因?yàn)樗麄儽仨毥ㄔ齑笮退畨魏投刹郏@需要考慮地球的曲率。
然而,他們無法確認(rèn)地球是圓的,因?yàn)樘窖蠛茈y航行通過,而朝另一個(gè)方向航行需要很長時(shí)間。
Michael Chow
Your account of China’s foreign relations has significant inaccuracies. For eg. SE Asia (Philippines) and China had extensive trade of goods and ideas for over a millennium.
Marco Polo came to China as Europe was emerging from the dark ages. China’s naval tech at this time was centuries ahead of Europe. China was the global tech leader for centuries around this time.
You’ll want to watch: Peter Nolan on China's silk road strategy Keynote held on 7th April 2016 at the wiiw Spring Seminar in Vienna. Peter Nolan is Professor at Cambridge University.
The whole lecture is great. He addresses some of the issues I mentioned around 19:30 min.
I’m guessing you’re from HK?
你對中國的外交關(guān)系的描述有很多不準(zhǔn)確之處。例如,東南亞(菲律賓)和中國在一千多年的時(shí)間里進(jìn)行了廣泛的商品和思想交換。
馬可波羅來到中國時(shí),歐洲正從黑暗時(shí)代崛起。當(dāng)時(shí)中國的海軍技術(shù)比歐洲領(lǐng)先了幾個(gè)世紀(jì)。大約在這個(gè)時(shí)候,幾個(gè)世紀(jì)以來,中國一直是全球科技的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)者。
你應(yīng)該看看:彼得·諾蘭(Peter Nolan)于2016年4月7日在維也納WIW春季研討會(huì)上就中國絲綢之路戰(zhàn)略發(fā)表的主題演講。彼得·諾蘭是劍橋大學(xué)的教授。
整個(gè)講座很棒,他談到了我在19:30左右提到的一些問題。
我猜你是香港人吧?
Wasu Koysiripong
It is quite scary to think that we might be now in the same situation as China back then, i.e. all the planets within our reach have no civilization for us to learn from and someday we might be discovered by a much more advanced civilization from some planets far away.
我們現(xiàn)在的處境可能與當(dāng)時(shí)的中國一樣,也就是說,我們所能接觸到的所有行星都沒有可供我們學(xué)習(xí)的文明,有一天我們可能會(huì)被來自遙遠(yuǎn)星球的更先進(jìn)的文明所發(fā)現(xiàn),這是相當(dāng)可怕的。
Ethan Jia
Let me continue this imagination. When the aliens came, the United Nations tried to unify the global political, economic and military forces against the external enemies. However, there is a bunch of virtuous guys who believe that the damned humans are destroying the earth, that humans have original SINS and that humans need to be judged. So they brought in aliens to judge humans.
讓我繼續(xù)這個(gè)想象。當(dāng)外星人到來時(shí),聯(lián)合國試圖團(tuán)結(jié)全球政治、經(jīng)濟(jì)和軍事力量對抗外部敵人。然而,有一群善良的人相信,該死的人類正在毀滅地球,人類有原罪,人類需要被審判。所以他們帶了外星人來審判人類。
Gloucera Wingardium
and until the British and later the 8 powerful countries invaded China, China never even knew there were such thing as a more advanced country.
直到英國和后來的八國聯(lián)軍入侵中國,中國才知道還有更先進(jìn)的國家。
Vivian MS
…….tbh it seems like you’ve read some novels set in an ancient China setting. There are elements that involve some bits of history but after all they are just novels not serious history books.
……看來你讀過一些以中國古代為背景的小說,因?yàn)橛行┮蛩厣婕耙恍v史片段,但畢竟它們只是小說而不是嚴(yán)肅的歷史書籍。
ChewWei Yoo
Seriously,The recording of chinese history is the most complete in the world.It is never interrupted for 3,000 years. Some emperors might juggled the reacoding of coups,but mostly is creditable.
Because chinese trust in 敬天法古(Reverence to heaven And Learn from ancestors)
說真的,中國歷史的記載是世界上最完整的,3000年來從未間斷過。一些皇帝可能會(huì)在政變的記載上?;ㄕ?,但大部分都是可信的。
因?yàn)橹袊讼嘈牛壕刺旆ü牛ǔ缇瓷咸?,向祖先學(xué)習(xí))
去問問一些歷史學(xué)家,他們會(huì)同意這一點(diǎn)的。
此條印度人回,自刪
Andy Liu
Yes, but more like different rather than more advanced. And because xuanzang went through so many troubles to get there, it makes cultural exchange between China and India way too difficult. Thus, Chinese knew India was a powerful country beyond Ti... but never established any regular contact channels.
If China had some regular contacts with India , I believe the two countries would have had some bloodiest war throughout history.
是的,但更像是不同,而不是更高級的文明。因?yàn)樾式?jīng)歷了很多麻煩才到達(dá)那里,這使得中印之間的文化交流變得非常困難。因此,中國人知道印度是西藏以外的一個(gè)強(qiáng)大的國家,但從未建立過任何定期的聯(lián)系渠道。
如果中國與印度有一些定期接觸,我相信兩國會(huì)發(fā)生歷史上最血腥的戰(zhàn)爭。
原創(chuàng)翻譯:龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Thusal Ttb
I don’t think there would have been war. The Indians thought they were the most civilised. The Chinese thought they were the most civilised. They two peoples would have fucked each other into genetic assimilation. Dont’t you think?
我不認(rèn)為會(huì)有戰(zhàn)爭。因?yàn)橛〉诎踩苏J(rèn)為他們是最文明的,中國人也認(rèn)為他們是最文明的。這兩個(gè)民族會(huì)相互結(jié)合,導(dǎo)致基因同化。你不覺得嗎?
Hintivitim Ocim
王玄策 - 搜索結(jié)果 - 維基百科,自由的百科全書
His charge was to detain the passing ambassadors of the Tang Empire.
算了,太打擊人了(逃
王玄策 - 搜索結(jié)果 - 維基百科,自由的百科全書(鏈接)
作為唐朝的大使,他率領(lǐng)唐朝附屬國家的軍隊(duì)(吐蕃派了1200名士兵,后來又派了8000名士兵)進(jìn)攻戒日王朝(Harsha Empire),并將印度北部夷為平地。戒日王朝皇帝因褻瀆唐朝天皇而被王玄策逮捕,并被送往首都長安。
他的罪名是扣留路過的唐朝大使。
算了,太打擊人了(逃
Chunxiao He
哈哈哈,印度人太愛吹牛了,沒辦法,只有打他們臉。
Hintivitim Ocim
這沙雕要是和我扯史料我都有一坨,就是他們看不懂。估計(jì)印度正兒八經(jīng)的史書不多(逃
[1] 《資治通鑒·卷第一百九十九·唐紀(jì)十五》:會(huì)尸羅逸多卒,國中大亂,其臣阿羅那順自立,發(fā)胡兵攻玄策;玄策帥從者三十人與戰(zhàn),力不敵,悉為所擒,阿羅那順盡掠諸國貢物。
[2] 《資治通鑒·卷第一百九十九·唐紀(jì)十五》:玄策脫身宵遁,抵吐蕃西境,以書征鄰國兵,吐蕃遣精銳千二百人、泥婆國遣七千馀騎赴之。
[3] 《舊唐書》卷一百九十八 列傳第一百四十八:先是遣右率府長史王玄策使天竺,其四天竺國王咸遣使朝貢。會(huì)中天竺王尸羅逸多死,國中大亂,其臣那伏帝阿羅那順篡立,乃盡發(fā)胡兵以拒玄策。玄策從騎三十人與胡御戰(zhàn),不敵,矢盡,悉被擒。胡并掠諸國貢獻(xiàn)之物。玄策乃挺身宵遁,走至吐蕃,發(fā)精銳一千二百人,并泥婆羅國七千余騎,以從玄策。玄策與副使蔣師仁率二國兵進(jìn)至中天竺國城,連戰(zhàn)三日,大破之,斬首三千余級,赴水溺死者且萬人,阿羅那順棄城而遁,師仁進(jìn)擒獲之。虜男女萬二千人,牛馬三萬余頭匹。于是天竺震懼,俘阿羅那順以歸。
[4] 《舊唐書》卷三 本紀(jì)第三:“(貞觀二十二年)四月甲寅,磧外蕃人爭牧馬出界,上親臨斷決,然后咸服。丁巳,右武候?qū)④娏航ǚ綋羲赏庑U,下其部落七十二所。五月庚子,右衛(wèi)率長史王玄策擊帝那伏帝國,大破之,獲其王阿羅那順及王妃、子等,虜男女萬二千人、牛馬二萬余以詣闕。
[5] 《新唐書》卷二百二十一上 列傳第一百四十六上:遣右衛(wèi)率府長史王玄策使其國,以蔣師仁為副;未至,尸羅逸多死,國人亂,其臣那伏帝阿羅那順自立,發(fā)兵拒玄策。時(shí)從騎才數(shù)十,戰(zhàn)不勝,皆沒,遂剽諸國貢物。玄策挺身奔吐蕃西鄙,檄召鄰國兵。吐蕃以兵千人來,泥婆羅以七千騎來,玄策部分進(jìn)戰(zhàn)茶镈和羅城,三日破之,斬首三千級,溺水死萬人。阿羅那順委國走,合散兵復(fù)陣,師仁禽之,俘斬千計(jì)。馀眾奉王妻息阻乾陀衛(wèi)江,師仁擊之,大潰,獲其妃、王子,虜男女萬二千人,雜畜三萬,降城邑五百八十所。東天竺王尸鳩摩送牛馬三萬饋軍,及弓、刀、寶纓絡(luò)。迦沒路國獻(xiàn)異物,并上地圖,請老子象。玄策執(zhí)阿羅那順獻(xiàn)闕下。
[6] 《資治通鑒·卷第一百九十九·唐紀(jì)十五》:會(huì)尸羅逸多卒,國中大亂,其臣阿羅那順自立,發(fā)胡兵攻玄策;玄策帥從者三十人與戰(zhàn),力不敵,悉為所擒,阿羅那順盡掠諸國貢物。玄策脫身宵遁,抵吐蕃西境,以書征鄰國兵,吐蕃遣精銳千二百人、泥婆國遣七千馀騎赴之。玄策與其副蔣師仁帥二國之兵,進(jìn)至中天竺所居茶馎和羅城,連戰(zhàn)三日,大破之,斬首三千馀級,赴水溺死者且萬人。阿羅那順棄城走,更收馀眾,還與師仁戰(zhàn);又破之,擒阿羅那順。馀眾奉其妃及王子,阻乾陀衛(wèi)江,師仁進(jìn)擊之,眾潰,獲其妃及王子,虜男女萬二千人。于是天竺響震,城邑聚落降者五百八十馀所,俘阿羅那順以歸。以玄策為朝散大夫。
此條印度人回,自刪
Hintivitim Ocim
oh, the *** member who lived in more than 1000 years ago.
Everything could be connected with ***, your logic is exciting.
And here I just pointed out there were some wars between The Heaven Empire and India, are you too sensitive?
哦,生活在一千多年前的中共黨員。
一切都可能與共產(chǎn)黨有關(guān),你的邏輯真令人興奮。
在這里我只是指出天朝和印度之間有一些戰(zhàn)爭,你是不是太敏感了?
此條印度人回,自刪
Hintivitim Ocim
Yes, This is indeed a surprise attack. So Wang was only finally promoted to a fifth rank official by the Son of the Heaven. And because of the confusion caused by Wang Xuanze, Tubo was no longer hindered by India, and became the main threat to the Heaven Empire. It can be said that the loss outweigh the gains.
是的,這確實(shí)是一次突然襲擊。所以,王最終被天子提拔為五等官。而由于王玄策造成的混亂,吐蕃不再受到印度的掣肘,從而變成了天朝的主要威脅。這可以說得不償失。
Xane Feng
Which is probably why they were willing to lend Wang troops in the first place.
這可能就是為什么他們一開始就愿意借兵給王玄策。
此條印度人回,自刪
Praveen Kumar Singh
Indian civilization was far more developed than Chinese civilization, during that time.
在那個(gè)時(shí)期,印度文明遠(yuǎn)比中國文明發(fā)達(dá)。
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