網(wǎng)友討論：在美國(guó)人眼中，意大利人到底算不算白人？

casanino
Most American Italians are huge racists as well.

大部分意大利裔美國(guó)人也是非常惡劣的種族主義者。

Priamosish
French? They're all short, dark and dirty. -Germany
As a native German speaker I've never heard of this. Nobody thinks of south Europeans as dirty. Shorter and more tan? Yes, because it's true.

（盧森堡）德國(guó)：法國(guó)人？他們都又矮又黑，還臟兮兮的。
作為一個(gè)以德語(yǔ)為母語(yǔ)的人，我從來(lái)沒(méi)有聽(tīng)到過(guò)這種話。沒(méi)人會(huì)覺(jué)得南歐人臟。但要是說(shuō)到更矮小、更棕黑？是的，因?yàn)檫@就是事實(shí)。

Wam_2020
If my middle eastern husband is considered white to the US government; Italians are white.

（俄勒岡）如果在美國(guó)政府的眼中，我那來(lái)自中東的丈夫?qū)儆诎兹?，那意大利人也是白人?/b>

This made me cackle. Every middle eastern person I know can’t stop ranting about how they deserve their own ID box (which they most definitely do). The disdain when I joke that they’re white is just incredible.

（回）你這話把我笑慘了。我認(rèn)識(shí)的中東人全都在不停地抱怨說(shuō)，早該在身份證上給他們這個(gè)種族單分一類(lèi)了（這完全是他們理應(yīng)得到的）。當(dāng)我調(diào)笑說(shuō)他們是白人，他們表現(xiàn)出的輕蔑簡(jiǎn)直讓人難以置信。

I find culture goes into it. Most Christian Lebanese consider themselves white but most Muslim Arabs don’t. The strangest one is Armenians who usually don’t consider themselves white except that nearly all Americans would perceive them as white.

（回）我發(fā)現(xiàn)這其中有文化因素。大多數(shù)信仰基督教的黎巴嫩人會(huì)自認(rèn)為是白人，但大多數(shù)阿拉伯穆斯林卻不會(huì)這么認(rèn)為。最奇怪的要數(shù)亞美尼亞人，他們通常不會(huì)把自己看成白人，但幾乎所有美國(guó)人都會(huì)把他們看成白人。

Hi, armenian-American here! I think a big part of that is tanning and hair texture. Most of my cousins are pretty much brown, and those of us that have white skin tan really well and can get pretty dark in the summer.
A lot of us have curly hair (my mom has like 3a/3b hair) and while wavy hair is pretty standard white we definitely have different texture.
Most of my family (sample size of about 50 or so extended cousins with different mixes) is white passing and would not be looked at twice, then you have my brother who gets stopped every time by airport security if he has a mustache/beard and isn't in his army gear

（回）你好，我就是亞美尼亞裔美國(guó)人！我認(rèn)為有很大一部分原因在于曬黑的皮膚，以及發(fā)質(zhì)。我大部分表親的膚色都是近乎棕色的，而我們中間那些皮膚很白的人都會(huì)把自己曬得很到位，在夏天時(shí)可以讓自己變得很黝黑。
我們中有很多人都是卷發(fā)（我媽頭發(fā)的卷度大約在3a/3b），但是，鬈曲的頭發(fā)是相當(dāng)標(biāo)準(zhǔn)的白人（特征），但我們的發(fā)質(zhì)絕對(duì)和他們不一樣。
我這個(gè)家族中的大部分人（樣本量為50人上下的堂/表兄弟姐妹，其中存在各種不同的混血兒）都是白人，不會(huì)讓人生疑的那種，而我那表兄，如果他蓄須了且不著軍裝，就每次都會(huì)被機(jī)場(chǎng)安檢攔下。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處

The way I see it, if 9/11 wasn’t described as something done by a bunch of “white terrorists” then we’re not really viewed as white and shouldn’t be referred to as such.
There are plenty of black and latino people with very light skin. Doesn’t mean they’re categorizing them as white.

（回）在我看來(lái)，如果世人沒(méi)有把9/11事件描述成一群“白人恐怖分子”的行徑，那其實(shí)我們就沒(méi)有被看成白人，也不應(yīng)該被這樣稱(chēng)呼。
有相當(dāng)數(shù)量的黑人和拉美人膚色都很淺。但這并不意味著他們被歸入了白人。

azuth89
Generally, yeah.
There was a time when that wasn't the case, but Irish people also weren't properly "white" for a while there, either.
It's a purely social construct, don't look for much in the way of logic in it.

（德州）一般而言，是的。
曾經(jīng)有一段時(shí)期并不是這樣的，但愛(ài)爾蘭人也在某段時(shí)期中不被人看成正經(jīng)的“白人”。
這純粹就是一種社會(huì)建構(gòu)，別指望在其中找到太多邏輯。

I think religion (Catholicism) had something to do with that.

（回，喬治亞州）我覺(jué)得宗教（天主教）與此有關(guān)。

Religion and the ability to speak English.

（回）宗教，以及說(shuō)英語(yǔ)的能力。

Don't forget the economics of class. Large immigrant communities are usually a primary source of cheap labor, which is good for the rich, not so much for everyone else. The lower classes then fight over the scraps, and find someone to vilify. It's easier to "other" an immigrant community than recognize you're a cog in a complicated system of exploitation. When the "othered" community doesn't share your religion or language, the dehumanization becomes even easier. Not to mention, you can actively abuse the immigrant, you can't do anything to the rich without immediate and painful consequences.
In the United States, we fundamentally have a class problem in which we have seamless woven racism.

（回）不要忘了各階級(jí)的經(jīng)濟(jì)屬性。大型移民群體通常都是廉價(jià)勞動(dòng)力的主要來(lái)源，這對(duì)富人來(lái)說(shuō)是好事，而對(duì)其他所有人來(lái)說(shuō)就不盡然了。然后下層階級(jí)就會(huì)為這些殘羹剩飯而廝打，并找到可以誹謗的對(duì)象。將一個(gè)移民群體“孤立出去并欺凌之”，要比承認(rèn)自己是一個(gè)復(fù)雜剝削系統(tǒng)中的一個(gè)齒輪容易。當(dāng)這個(gè)“被他者化”的社群的宗教或語(yǔ)言都不同于你時(shí)，不把對(duì)方當(dāng)人看就變得更容易了。更不用說(shuō)你可以很主動(dòng)地去謾罵移民，但你對(duì)富人做了些什么卻不產(chǎn)生直接且痛苦的后果，卻是不可能的。
美國(guó)存在的階級(jí)問(wèn)題是根深蒂固的，其中還存在被編造得天衣無(wú)縫的種族主義。

Mostly because that was pushed by the Klan.

（回）主要原因是3K黨在推動(dòng)這些。

lemystereduchipot
I think most Italians in the US are also of southern Italian heritage and they were stereotyped as being "swarthy" (which is now how Arabs/South Asians are stereotyped by some racists)

我認(rèn)為，在美國(guó)的大部分意大利裔同時(shí)擁有意大利南部血統(tǒng)，對(duì)他們的刻板印象就是“黝黑”（現(xiàn)在，有些種族主義者對(duì)阿拉伯人/南亞人的刻板印象也是如此）。

mdp300
A lot of it was simply hating on the new guys. Back when most (white) people had English, Dutch or German ancestry, these Italians and Irish with their funny accents and different customs and catholicism were weirdos.
200 years later it's the same, the new guys are just from a different place.

（新澤西）其中有很大一部分原因純粹是憎恨新來(lái)者。當(dāng)時(shí)的大部分白人都有英國(guó)、荷蘭或德國(guó)血統(tǒng)，而這些帶著滑稽的口音、不同的風(fēng)俗以及天主教義而來(lái)的意大利人和愛(ài)爾蘭人成了怪人。
在二百年后的今天也還是如此，無(wú)非是這些新來(lái)者的母國(guó)換了一個(gè)地方而已。

stefiscool
I would. Though what other commenters have said is true, only about 50 or so years ago did Slavs get considered to be white, and all my Polish ass has to do to get sunburned is look at a photo of a beach!

（新澤西）我會(huì)的。雖然其他評(píng)論者所言是屬實(shí)的，斯拉夫人被看成白人也僅僅是約50年前的事情，而我那波蘭牌的大白腚只須看一眼海灘的照片就會(huì)被曬傷。

ccurrtis189
You guys are Mediterranean, it’s like being white except that you don’t look like a lobster after being out in the sun too long.

（佛羅里達(dá)）你們這些家伙屬于地中海人，就是那種，也算是白人吧，但你們?cè)陉?yáng)光下待了太久以后并不會(huì)紅得像只龍蝦。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處

NotSoStallionItalian
I'm a naturally tan Italian-American(American for non US redditors) of entirely Sicilian descent. My dna test says I'm at least a fourth north african and middle eastern descent. I still consider myself white.

我是一個(gè)膚色天然黑的意大利裔美國(guó)人（對(duì)非美國(guó)人的紅迪網(wǎng)友來(lái)說(shuō)我就是美國(guó)人），是純的西西里人血統(tǒng)。我的DNA檢測(cè)結(jié)果說(shuō)，我至少有四分之一的北非和中東血統(tǒng)。但我仍然認(rèn)為自己是白人。

Squooshyfood
They're white but I wouldn't bat an eye if they were darker, Mediterranean type complexion. I've actually met a few people that are genuinely "bronze" - even in the dead of winter they look like a tanned guys.

他們是白人，但如果他們的膚色較深，就那種地中海類(lèi)型的膚色，我也不會(huì)驚訝的。事實(shí)上，我遇到過(guò)幾個(gè)真正的“古銅色”的人，即使在嚴(yán)冬，他們看起來(lái)也像是曬黑了的人。

Practical-Ordinary-6
The standard that was measured against was not white. It was WASP - white, Anglo-Saxon protestant.
Italians and Irish failed that last part. And, I guess, the second-to-last part, too, although that was more flexible.
The whole thing never really had any relevance outside the U.S.

這里的衡量標(biāo)準(zhǔn)并不是白色。而是WASP，即是白人，而且是種族為盎格魯-撒克遜的新教徒。
意大利人和愛(ài)爾蘭人不符合最后那部分。而且，我猜倒數(shù)第二部分也不符合，盡管盎撒這個(gè)民族概念沒(méi)有那么嚴(yán)格。
這整件事在美國(guó)以外的國(guó)家，根本就不算事兒。

docescape
I consider Italians “Spicy White”.

（舊金山）在我眼中，意大利人是“加過(guò)料的白人”。

GBabeuf
When my grandma was a girl growing up in rural Colorado in the 40's, she was often made fun of and ostracized for being Italian and therefore not "white." It was something she was ashamed of for a long time and wouldn't admit.
However, that was a long time ago. Today, Italians are universally considered white.

四十年代時(shí)，我祖母是一個(gè)在科羅拉多州的鄉(xiāng)村長(zhǎng)大的女孩，她經(jīng)常因?yàn)樽约菏且獯罄硕蝗⌒团懦?，因此不算是“白人”。這是她長(zhǎng)久以來(lái)為之羞恥的事情，她也不愿意承認(rèn)。
然而，那是很久以前的事了。如今，普遍都會(huì)把意大利人看成白人。

JavertHadAPoint
Depends on who you ask. Most sane people would say yes, of course.
My fiancée’s grandmother, on the other hand…
She was apparently concerned that I, as an American of Italian descent, was only interested in marrying her granddaughter so I could “sneak into a white family”.

（紐約）答案因人而異。大多數(shù)心智正常的人當(dāng)然會(huì)說(shuō)是。
而另一方面，我未婚妻的祖母就…
顯然很讓她擔(dān)心的是：我作為一個(gè)意大利裔美國(guó)人，娶她孫女圖的就是可以由此“混進(jìn)一個(gè)白人家庭”。

EverGreatestxX
Yes, Italians have been considered "white enough" for almost a century now

是的，人們認(rèn)為意大利人“足夠白”，到今天差不多已經(jīng)一個(gè)世紀(jì)了。

Snoo33903
Italians are 50% marinara and 50% wine. So all around a good time regardless of color.

意大利人是50%的蒜香番茄醬加上50%的葡萄酒。所以無(wú)論是什么膚色，總能享受美好時(shí)光。

simberry2
Yeah. There was a time when the Italians and the Irish weren’t white, but that time has long passed

是的。曾幾何時(shí)，意大利人和愛(ài)爾蘭人都不算是白人，但那個(gè)時(shí)代早就過(guò)去了。

CrepuscularCrone
In my experience I've found that there's a real difference between people from Northern Italy and Sicilians, both in material culture and behavior and looks. The people who are most identifiable as Italian in America are Sicilian.
As a genealogist I know that everyone is related and a word like "white" is meaningless.

以我個(gè)人的經(jīng)驗(yàn)，我發(fā)現(xiàn)意大利北部的人和西西里人之間的差異是真實(shí)存在的，在物質(zhì)文化、行為和長(zhǎng)相方面都是如此。在美國(guó)，最容易被認(rèn)作意大利人的就是西西里人。
作為一個(gè)系譜學(xué)者，我知道所有人之間都是有親緣關(guān)系的，像“白人”這種字眼是沒(méi)有意義的。

808hammerhead
Italian here..no. I’m Italian (specifically Sicilian). To me whiteness is a cultural thing, and ours is different. I’ve felt this way since grade school, I always marked “other” on CTBS tests. To me white people are northern and eastern Europeans. I’m not trying to say we’re an oppressed minority, we’re just a different culture than Northern Europeans.

我是意大利人....我不覺(jué)得自己是白人。我是意大利人（確切說(shuō)是西西里人）。對(duì)我來(lái)說(shuō)，白人是文化意義上的，而我們的文化是不同的。我從小學(xué)起就有這種感覺(jué)了，在CTBS基因測(cè)試中，我總會(huì)把自己標(biāo)注為“其他”。在我看來(lái)，白人就是北歐人和東歐人。我的意思并不是說(shuō)我們是受壓迫的少數(shù)族群，只是在文化上，我們真的不同于北歐人。

Bangkok_Dangeresque
That's because "White" is not a skin tone, it's a social class/construct. It has never actually been about color or physical characteristics.

這是因?yàn)椤鞍住辈皇且环N膚色，而是一種社會(huì)階級(jí)/社會(huì)架構(gòu)。事實(shí)上，它從來(lái)都和膚色或體貌特征無(wú)關(guān)。

wherehaveubeen
Yes, although some people like to cite the treatment of Italians 150 years ago to justify their current abhorrent views

是的，雖然有些人很喜歡引用150年前意大利人的遭遇，來(lái)佐證自己當(dāng)下的那些可憎的觀點(diǎn)。

RavenNorCal
In Italy percent whites definitely more than In the US, whites here are going to be a minority.

（加州）在意大利，白人的比例絕對(duì)高于美國(guó)，在我們美國(guó)，白人將會(huì)成為少數(shù)族群。

AshkenazRex
No. They’re Jews with better food.

不是白人。他們只是更會(huì)做飯的猶太人而已。