立陶宛、匈牙利和丹麥等歐洲國(guó)家是如何從中世紀(jì)的大帝國(guó)變成現(xiàn)在這樣如此小的弱國(guó)的？
How did some European countries like Lithuania, Hungary and Denmark go from large medi empires to such small and weak states?
譯文簡(jiǎn)介
你知道 "罪有應(yīng)得"的意思嗎？
正文翻譯
How did some European countries like Lithuania, Hungary and Denmark go from large medi empires to such small and weak states?
立陶宛、匈牙利和丹麥等歐洲國(guó)家是如何從中世紀(jì)的大帝國(guó)變成現(xiàn)在這樣如此小的弱國(guó)的？
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, works at Iran's Nuclear Program
Just few dates about Lithuania and lithuanians
1253 Mindaugas crowned as first king of unified Lithuania
1547 published first book in lithuanian language (in Prussia, catechismus by lithuanian prostestant priest, and financed by Prussian duke)
1595 published first book in lithuanian language in Lithuanian Grand Duchy (catholic cathechismus)
關(guān)于立陶宛和立陶宛人的幾個(gè)重要日期：
1253年Mindaugas加冕為統(tǒng)一的立陶宛的第一位國(guó)王
1547年出版了第一本立陶宛語書籍（在普魯士，由立陶宛新教徒牧師編寫的慕道書，并由普魯士公爵資助）。
1595年，在立陶宛大公國(guó)出版了第一本立陶宛語書籍（天主教的《教義》）。
Do you know the meaning of the expression to get one's right deserts?
你知道 "罪有應(yīng)得"的意思嗎？
, former Cabin Crew at Scandinavian Airlines
Denmark is a very strong country and not at all weak.
It is very developed as well. A small country does not necessarily mean that it is weak. This question does not make sense.
丹麥?zhǔn)且粋€(gè)非常強(qiáng)大的國(guó)家，一點(diǎn)也不弱。
它也是非常發(fā)達(dá)的。一個(gè)小國(guó)家不一定意味著它是弱國(guó)。這個(gè)問題沒有意義。
it makes sense…… Denmark is rich thats true, but Hungary and Lithuania are not. However, all three are political dwarves and unimportant players on global scene…. yet in the past they were the giants.
這是有道理的......丹麥很富有，這是事實(shí)，但匈牙利和立陶宛不是。然而，這三個(gè)國(guó)家都是政治上的小矮人，在全球舞臺(tái)上都是不重要的角色....但在過去，它們卻是巨人。
With all due respect and in the past, Egypt has built pyramids that we can not build with our technology but at the same time is a very poor country.
The past does not matter, the present matters. Denmark is not small, it has Greenland and Iceland, plus Scandinavia is a unx and it can be like before.
They are rich because they have a plan for the future and the economy, the west and Lithuania are dependent on other countries due to poor management policy
恕我直言，在過去，埃及建造了我們的技術(shù)無法建造的金字塔，但在現(xiàn)在也是一個(gè)非常貧窮的國(guó)家。
過去并不重要，重要的是現(xiàn)在。丹麥不小，它有格陵蘭和冰島，加上斯堪的納維亞半島是一個(gè)聯(lián)盟，它可以像以前一樣。
他們之所以富裕是因?yàn)樗麄儗?duì)未來和經(jīng)濟(jì)有計(jì)劃，西方和立陶宛由于管理政策不完善而依賴其他國(guó)家
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處
While Denmark is small, it is definetely not weak. Why it is so small, is because of arrogance. Thinking they could win against Sweden in the 1600 and Prussia in 1864, as Well as being forced to Pick Napoleon’s side during the Napoleonic Wars. But despite the hardship it found a Way to stay strong and devleoped. Not weak.
Hungary went from being part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, to being an independent country, after the abolishing of said Empire after WWI. Whether it is weak, I Can not say because I don’t know much of this country.
雖然丹麥很小，但它絕對(duì)不弱。為什么它這么小，是因?yàn)樗陌谅?。他們認(rèn)為自己可以在1600年戰(zhàn)勝瑞典，在1864年戰(zhàn)勝普魯士，以及在拿破侖戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)期間被迫站在拿破侖一邊。但盡管困難重重，它還是找到了保持強(qiáng)大和發(fā)展的方法。而不是變?nèi)酢?br /> 匈牙利從奧匈帝國(guó)的一部分，到一戰(zhàn)后廢除該帝國(guó)后成為一個(gè)獨(dú)立國(guó)家。它是否變?nèi)趿?，我不能斷言，因?yàn)槲覍?duì)這個(gè)國(guó)家了解不多。
Did not Denmark surrender immediately to the Third Reich?
丹麥不是馬上向第三帝國(guó)投降了嗎？
Yes, but unlike previous conflicts, after WWII we didn’t loose further territories and we also showed Resistance against the Nazis in several different ways.
是的，但與以往的沖突不同，二戰(zhàn)后我們沒有失去更多的領(lǐng)土，我們還以多種不同的方式表現(xiàn)出對(duì)納粹的抵抗。
, knows Russian
The ammoun of land a nation possesses is corelated to their strength. These days lietuvie?i, hungarians, and danes are weaker compared to their neibors than they used to be thus they have less land than they used to.
一個(gè)國(guó)家擁有的土地?cái)?shù)量與他們的實(shí)力息息相關(guān)。近來，立陶宛，匈牙利人和丹麥人與他們的鄰國(guó)相比，確實(shí)比以前更弱了，因此他們的土地比以前少了。
, Entrepreneur
First of all, I disagree that Lithuania and Denmark are weak country.
Then, if we talk about medi Lithuania you must understand that it was three nations country. Modern Ukrainian, Belorussian and Lithuanians people lived in that country. Sometimes it called Grand Duchy of Lithuania of Russia and Samogitia. It was really big country which could gather huge armies.
首先，我不同意立陶宛和丹麥?zhǔn)侨鯂?guó)的說法。
然后，如果我們談?wù)撝惺兰o(jì)的立陶宛，你必須了解它是三個(gè)國(guó)家?，F(xiàn)代烏克蘭人、白俄羅斯人和立陶宛人都生活在這個(gè)國(guó)家。有時(shí)它被稱為俄羅斯和薩莫吉特的立陶宛大公國(guó)。它是一個(gè)真正的大國(guó)，可以匯集大量的軍隊(duì)。
, lives in The Netherlands (1997-present)
I will have a go at explaining this, don’t take my answers as an absolute however as I’m leaving out various facts for the sake of posterity.
Lithuania
The main factor that led to the sudden and explosive growth of Lithuania after the 13th century was the fragmentation of Kievan Rus in the 11th century. This vast power vacuum created multiple splintered Russian states where previously there had been one vast power.
Lithuania was then in a prime position to pick up land from these states and expand into a behemoth of a country relative to its contemporaries. The issue here is that the majority of this land remained ethnically Russian/Byelorussian. I would imagine that even without it being sandwiched between Russia, Prussia and Austria Hungary the polish-Lithuanian commonwealth would eventually have collapsed to the rise of nationalism in the same vein Austro-Hungary did.
This explains why modern Lithuania is such a tiny and relatively ‘weak’ country, as current Lithuania solely spans area inhabited by ethnic Lithuanians instead of also incorporating an enormous number of Russians and Byelorussians.
Hungary
Unlike Lithuania Hungary actually had a sizeable population going for it, but it still ended up as a ‘small’ country in Europe for the same reason Germany lost 1/3rd of its territory: the world wars.
The treaty of Trianon saw Hungary over 70% of the territory it had previously held within Austro Hungary. Most of this wasn’t inhabited by even a minority of Hungarians but it still saw enormous numbers of Hungarians split off. I imagine that the loss of this territory and its population/resources it one of the contributing factors to Hungary lack of ‘power’ in modern day Europe.
You should also think about the fact that most landlocked nations that aren’t especially rich in terms of resources can’t be expected to become ‘powerful’ in the modern world.
Denmark
I’m not all that knowledgeable about Danish history, but I imagine most of its former power came from trade. As a Dutchmen I know the Netherlands experienced a period of immense wealth in parts thank to trading in grain from the Baltics and that the Danish profited from this by taxing any passage through their waters.
I guess Danish power declined as a result of trade moving towards the North sea instead of the Baltic sea and because of the end of Danish control over the Swedes and Norwegians.
我將對(duì)這個(gè)問題進(jìn)行解釋，但不要把我的答案當(dāng)作絕對(duì)的，因?yàn)槲覟榱俗訉O后人，省略了各種事實(shí)。
立陶宛：
導(dǎo)致立陶宛在13世紀(jì)后突然爆發(fā)性增長(zhǎng)的主要因素是基輔羅斯在11世紀(jì)的分裂。這個(gè)巨大的權(quán)力真空造成了多個(gè)四分五裂的羅斯國(guó)家，而此前這里只有一個(gè)龐大的霸主。
立陶宛當(dāng)時(shí)處于有利地位，可以從這些國(guó)家手中奪取土地，并且相對(duì)于其同時(shí)代的國(guó)家來說，更容易擴(kuò)展成一個(gè)龐然大物。這里的問題是，這塊土地的大部分仍然是俄羅斯/白俄羅斯的民族。我想，即使沒有夾在俄羅斯、普魯士和奧地利之間的匈牙利，波蘭-立陶宛聯(lián)邦最終也會(huì)像奧匈帝國(guó)一樣，因民族主義的崛起而崩潰。
這就解釋了為什么現(xiàn)代立陶宛是一個(gè)如此微小和相對(duì)"弱小"的國(guó)家，因?yàn)槟壳暗牧⑻胀鹬豢缭搅肆⑻胀鹱迦司幼〉牡貐^(qū)，而沒有納入大量的俄羅斯人和白俄羅斯人。
匈牙利：
與立陶宛不同，匈牙利實(shí)際上有相當(dāng)多的人口，但它仍然是歐洲的一個(gè)"小"國(guó)家，原因與德國(guó)失去了1/3的領(lǐng)土一樣：世界大戰(zhàn)。
在《特里亞儂條約》中，匈牙利獲得了它以前在奧匈帝國(guó)擁有的70%的領(lǐng)土。其中大部分地區(qū)甚至沒有多少匈牙利人在居住，但仍有大量的匈牙利人被分割了出去。我想，失去這塊領(lǐng)土及其人口/資源是導(dǎo)致匈牙利在現(xiàn)代歐洲缺乏"力量"的因素之一。
你也應(yīng)該考慮到這樣一個(gè)事實(shí)，即大多數(shù)在資源方面不是特別豐富的內(nèi)陸國(guó)家不可能在現(xiàn)代世界中成為"強(qiáng)國(guó)"。
丹麥：
我對(duì)丹麥的歷史不是很了解，但我想象它以前的大部分力量來自于貿(mào)易。作為一個(gè)荷蘭人，我知道荷蘭經(jīng)歷了一個(gè)巨大的財(cái)富爆發(fā)時(shí)期，部分原因是來自波羅的海的谷物貿(mào)易，丹麥人通過對(duì)通過其水域的任何通道征稅而從中獲利。
我猜測(cè)丹麥的實(shí)力下降是由于貿(mào)易向北海而不是波羅的海轉(zhuǎn)移，以及由于丹麥對(duì)瑞典人和挪威人的控制結(jié)束。
But in the medi times the percentages of the Hungarian population was much higher in Hungary (I do not count now Croatia because it was personal unx with Hungary and I do not see any problem that Croatia and Hungary now are indepent states). But it was many many wars and devastations and many immigrations, like today many immigrants move to western Europe thus the population is already different like 100 years ago.
Also the new border did not follow the ethnic borders and it cerated many new multi ethnic artificial countries where the Hungarians were supressed.
但在中世紀(jì)，匈牙利的人口比例要高得多（我現(xiàn)在不計(jì)算克羅地亞，因?yàn)樗c匈牙利是聯(lián)盟，我不認(rèn)為克羅地亞和匈牙利現(xiàn)在是獨(dú)立的國(guó)家有什么問題）。但當(dāng)時(shí)有很多戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)和破壞，也有很多移民，就像今天很多移民移居到西歐一樣，因此人口已經(jīng)和100年前不同了。
此外，新的邊界并沒有遵循民族邊界，它創(chuàng)造了許多新的多民族的人造國(guó)家，匈牙利人在那些國(guó)家受到壓制。
Using those post-medi data are not valid for Hungary. Because during the 300 years-long turkish wars most of the Hungarians were killed or dragged into slavery. This is how we became minority in our own country.
使用那些中世紀(jì)以后的數(shù)據(jù)對(duì)匈牙利來說是無效的。因?yàn)樵陂L(zhǎng)達(dá)300年的對(duì)土耳其戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)期間，大多數(shù)匈牙利人被殺害或被拖入奴隸制。這就是我們?cè)谧约旱膰?guó)家成為少數(shù)民族的原因。
If you want a simple answer.
Lithuania because of Russia and Germany. Denmark because of the founder of Sweden. Hungary because of the world wars.
Mostly, European nations tended to coherence from shared similarities, but other powers would try to weaken them or keep them apart. That’s how you get the balance of power that fuels the dynamics of Europe since the Middle Ages to the current era.
This is of course an oversimplification. Form this general idea do some research.
如果你想要一個(gè)簡(jiǎn)單的答案。
立陶宛是因?yàn)槎砹_斯和德國(guó)。丹麥?zhǔn)且驗(yàn)槿鸬涞莫?dú)立。匈牙利是因?yàn)槭澜绱髴?zhàn)的緣故。
大多數(shù)情況下，歐洲國(guó)家因共同的相似性而趨于一致，但其他大國(guó)會(huì)試圖削弱它們或使它們分離。這就是你如何得到權(quán)力的平衡，它助長(zhǎng)了自中世紀(jì)到現(xiàn)在的歐洲的動(dòng)態(tài)發(fā)展。
這當(dāng)然是過于簡(jiǎn)單化了。形成這個(gè)總體思路要做一些研究。
, map lover
We modern people tend to put equality sign between modern states and historical ones that have a similar name and occupy somewhat similar territory. However, in fact most modern countries are Nation States, a concept that largely developed throughout 19th century. For sure there is certain continuity between modern Lithuania and medi Grand Duchy of Lithuania (GDL), as well as modern Hungary and medi Kingdom of Hungary, not talking about Kingdom of Denmark, which is still ruled by the same royal dynasty since 15th century or so. But this continuity shouldn’t be overestimated. Medi states weren’t nations: they were sort of family businesses specialized in governing, war, diplomacy and tax collection that controlled certain territories and were supported by elites living on these territories.
In some cases these territories were populated by rather homogenous ethnicity speaking the same language and because of that they were very similar to their descendant nation state. But in other cases, royal families and their closest allies were representing relatively small ethnic groups from smaller territories that gradually managed to expand their influence on neighbouring ethnicities, but couldn’t influence major change in language and identity of people living there. Both medi Lithuania and Hungary are examples of such. My answer will be mostly covering Lithuanian case, as I am more knowledgeable about it than about Hungary.
1000 years of European borders, source: Google.
Medi Grand Duchy of Lithuania (GDL) was build on ashes of Kyivan Rus’ destroyed by Mongolian invasion. Being largely untouched by Mongols, GDL was perfectly positioned to quickly fill the power vacuum that formed on Rus’ lands in the aftermath. In a very short time, Gediminids expanded their territory from what is modern territory of Lithuania to include what is now Belarus and majority of Ukraine. Of course these territories were still populated by Ruthenians, who were a majority in this new great empire of Eastern Europe. For most of the people living there at the time transfer of power to Lithuanian state wasn’t really a big deal: they were still living lives they lived before, speaking the same language, practicing the same religion, sometimes even paying taxes to the same local lord, even though the latter would transfer a cut of it to someone else.
Map of Grand Duchy of Lithuania at its greatest extent. Greyish northwestern territory is a ethnic Lithuanian territories, from where it all expanded. Green territories are mostly former lands of Kyivan Rus, populated by Ruthenians.
Despite being ruled by Lithuanian royal family, this state used Ruthenian language as one of the official languages, along with Lithuanian and Polish. Statutes of Lithuania (legal code of the state) were written in three languages including Ruthenian. In fact, the text itself was heavily based on Rus’ka Pravda - medi legal code of Kyivan Rus, first written by Yaroslav the Wise, Grand Duke of Kyiv in 11th century.
Ruthenian nobility such as Ostrogsky, Wi?niowiecki, Czartoryski were backbone of ruling elite, occupying the highest positions in state, going as high as King/Grand Duke’s position itself in later periods (see Micha? Korybut Wi?niowiecki). Of course, over time most of these families gradually drifted towards dominant ethnicity in the state, in this case Polish, which dominated the Commonwealth after unx of Lublin was signed and GDL itself started to lose its autonomy.
Now, why Lithuanians couldn’t assimilate conquered territories?
First and foremost, Grand Duchy of Lithuania wasn’t really that Lithuanian except in the name. According to modern estimates, by the time it finished expansion to former Rus’ lands, ethnic Lithuanians were only about 10–14% of total population: Demographics of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Of course, being such a small portion of total population it was hard if not impossible for ethnic Lithuanians to assimilate much larger Ruthenian population. Since importance of nation-building wasn’t understood back then, no one cared about system assimilation policy. In contrary, GDL was using “keep the old way, don’t introduce new” when integrating former Rus’ territories and this was one of the key success factors of this integration process.
Second factor is the distance one has to go to be assimilated. Language plays central role here. An Ukrainian or Belarusian person understands significant part of Polish or Russian text even without learning it before. That’s not the case with Lithuanian. Lithuanian language is not Slavic, it is Baltic. Both groups are distantly related, but understanding and speaking Lithuanian isn’t easy for speakers of most of slavic languages. As a Ukrainian I can’t really understand Lithuanian: it is almost completely foreign for me.
Map of Lexical Distance between European languages. Lithuanian is quite far from most of Slavic languages. At the same time Polish and Ruthenian (which eventually split into Ukrainian and Belarusian) are closely related. This map also hints that Hungarian language is in similar position as well.
Perhaps even more important element of medi identity was religion and here Lithuanians had a roadblock as well. Despite ruling dynasty converting to Christianity as early as middle of 13th century, most of Lithuanians were practicing local polytheistic religion as long as till the end of 14th century. This of course wasn’t helpful as well, especially that Christians were rather hostile towards pagan religions.
Finally, when it comes to the legacy of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, one has to understand that it is not only modern Lithuania who has some claim for it. In fact, one of the central elements of Belarusian historiography, used by opposition to current pro-Russian government is that Belarus formed its own identity under the rule of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, played important if not central role in its life during 14–16 century and has to trace its origins back to that period. It is not a coincidence that flag used by Belarusian opposition resembles that of GDL:
GDL Royal Banner, circa 16th century
Flag of Belarus in 1918 and 1991–1995
Antigovernmental Protests in Belarus, 2021
我們現(xiàn)代人傾向于在現(xiàn)代國(guó)家和歷史上的國(guó)家之間打上平等的標(biāo)簽，這些國(guó)家有著相似的名字，占據(jù)著有點(diǎn)類似的領(lǐng)土。然而，事實(shí)上大多數(shù)現(xiàn)代國(guó)家都是民族國(guó)家，這一概念主要是在19世紀(jì)發(fā)展起來的。可以肯定的是，現(xiàn)代立陶宛和中世紀(jì)的立陶宛大公國(guó)（GDL）之間有一定的連續(xù)性，現(xiàn)代匈牙利和中世紀(jì)的匈牙利王國(guó)之間也有一定的連續(xù)性，不談丹麥王國(guó)，它自15世紀(jì)左右以來至今仍然由同一個(gè)皇室王朝統(tǒng)治。但這種連續(xù)性不應(yīng)該被高估。中世紀(jì)的國(guó)家不是國(guó)家：它們是一種專門從事治理、戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)、外交和征稅的家族企業(yè)，控制著某些領(lǐng)土，并得到生活在這些領(lǐng)土上的精英的支持。
在某些情況下，這些領(lǐng)土上居住著相當(dāng)單一的民族，說著同樣的語言，正因?yàn)槿绱耍麄兣c他們的后代--民族國(guó)家--非常相似。但在其他情況下，王室和他們最親密的盟友代表著來自較小領(lǐng)土的相對(duì)較小的民族，他們逐漸設(shè)法擴(kuò)大對(duì)鄰近民族的影響，但無法影響生活在那里的人們?cè)谡Z言和身份上的重大變化。中世紀(jì)的立陶宛和匈牙利都是這樣的例子。我的回答將主要涉及立陶宛的情況，因?yàn)槲覍?duì)它的了解比對(duì)匈牙利更多。
中世紀(jì)的立陶宛大公國(guó)（GDL）建立在被蒙古人入侵摧毀的基輔羅斯的灰燼上。由于基本上沒有受到蒙古人的影響，立陶宛大公國(guó)完全有能力迅速填補(bǔ)羅斯的土地上在被摧殘之后形成的權(quán)力真空。在很短的時(shí)間內(nèi)，吉迪明王朝將其領(lǐng)土從現(xiàn)代立陶宛的領(lǐng)土擴(kuò)展到了現(xiàn)在的白俄羅斯和烏克蘭的大部分地區(qū)。當(dāng)然，這些領(lǐng)土的居民仍然是魯塞尼亞人，他們?cè)谶@個(gè)東歐的新大帝國(guó)中占多數(shù)。對(duì)于當(dāng)時(shí)生活在那里的大多數(shù)人來說，將權(quán)力移交給這個(gè)叫立陶宛的國(guó)家并不是什么大事：他們?nèi)匀贿^著以前的生活，說著同樣的語言，信奉同樣的宗教，有時(shí)甚至向同一個(gè)地方領(lǐng)主交稅，盡管后者會(huì)將其中的一部分轉(zhuǎn)給其他人。
（立陶宛大公國(guó)最大控制范圍?；疑奈鞅辈款I(lǐng)土是立陶宛族的領(lǐng)土，它的擴(kuò)張都是從那里開始的。綠色領(lǐng)土主要是基輔羅斯的舊地，由魯塞尼亞人居住。）
盡管由立陶宛王室統(tǒng)治，但這個(gè)國(guó)家使用魯塞尼亞語作為官方語言之一，同時(shí)還有立陶宛語和波蘭語。立陶宛的法規(guī)（國(guó)家的法典）是用包括魯塞尼亞語在內(nèi)的三種語言編寫的。事實(shí)上，文本本身在很大程度上是基于Rus'ka Pravda--基輔羅斯的中世紀(jì)法典，由基輔大公Yaroslav the Wise在11世紀(jì)首次撰寫。
魯西尼亞貴族，如奧斯特羅格斯基、維希諾維茨基、查爾托利斯基是統(tǒng)治精英的骨干，占據(jù)著國(guó)家的最高位置，在后期甚至高達(dá)國(guó)王/大公的位置（見米哈烏-科里布-維希諾維茨基）。當(dāng)然，隨著時(shí)間的推移，這些家族中的大多數(shù)逐漸向國(guó)家的主導(dǎo)民族靠攏，在這種情況下，波蘭人在《盧布林聯(lián)盟》簽署后主導(dǎo)了聯(lián)邦，GDL本身也開始失去自治權(quán)。
現(xiàn)在有一個(gè)問題：為什么立陶宛人不能同化被征服的領(lǐng)土？
首先，立陶宛大公國(guó)除了名字之外，并沒有真正意義上的立陶宛人。根據(jù)現(xiàn)代估計(jì)，當(dāng)它完成對(duì)前羅斯土地的擴(kuò)張時(shí)，立陶宛族人只占總?cè)丝诘?0-14%左右。當(dāng)然，作為總?cè)丝诘囊恍〔糠?，立陶宛人很難甚至不可能同化更大的魯西尼亞人。由于當(dāng)時(shí)還不了解國(guó)家建設(shè)的重要性，沒有人關(guān)心系統(tǒng)的同化政策。相反，GDL在整合前羅斯的領(lǐng)土?xí)r采用了"保持舊的，不引入新的"的方式，而這也是這個(gè)整合過程的關(guān)鍵成功因素之一。
第二個(gè)因素是一個(gè)人被同化所需要走多遠(yuǎn)。語言在這里起著核心作用。一個(gè)烏克蘭人或白俄羅斯人即使沒有學(xué)過波蘭語或俄語，也能理解其大部分內(nèi)容。而立陶宛語則不是這樣。立陶宛語不是斯拉夫語，它是波羅的海語。這兩個(gè)群體的關(guān)系很遠(yuǎn)，對(duì)于大多數(shù)斯拉夫語言的使用者來說，理解和說立陶宛語并不容易。作為一個(gè)烏克蘭人，我無法真正理解立陶宛語：它對(duì)我來說幾乎是完全陌生的。
（歐洲語言之間的語族距離地圖。立陶宛語與大多數(shù)斯拉夫語言的距離相當(dāng)遠(yuǎn)。同時(shí)，波蘭語和魯塞尼亞語（最終分裂為烏克蘭語和白俄羅斯語）是密切相關(guān)的。這張地圖還暗示，匈牙利語也處于類似的位置。）
也許在中世紀(jì)身份認(rèn)同的更看重的因素是宗教，但是在這里立陶宛人也遇到了障礙。因?yàn)楸M管統(tǒng)治王朝早在13世紀(jì)中期就皈依了基督教，但大多數(shù)立陶宛人一直到14世紀(jì)末都在信奉當(dāng)?shù)氐亩嗌窠?。這對(duì)于同化當(dāng)然也是無濟(jì)于事的，尤其是基督徒對(duì)異教相當(dāng)敵視。
最后，在談到立陶宛大公國(guó)的遺產(chǎn)時(shí)，我們必須明白，不僅僅是現(xiàn)代立陶宛對(duì)其有一些索求。事實(shí)上，白俄羅斯歷史學(xué)的核心內(nèi)容之一，即白俄羅斯在立陶宛大公國(guó)的統(tǒng)治下形成了自己的身份，并且在14-16世紀(jì)的立陶宛大公國(guó)的生活中發(fā)揮了重要的甚至是核心的作用，并且必須追溯到那個(gè)時(shí)期。白俄羅斯反對(duì)派使用的旗幟與立陶宛大公國(guó)的旗幟相似，這并不是一個(gè)巧合。
Rhutenian nobility was never a backbone of the rulling elite in the grand Duchy of Lithuania. For a very simple reason - in order to participate in ruling the state one had to be a Catholic. Before the baptism of the country the unwritten rule of the Gediminids was - once you baptised as an Orthodox you were loosing the right to the throne. That is why Ruthenian lands were seen as provinces for cousins or former enemies to rule. Ethnic Lithuanian lands were considered a patrimony and a center. The claim that Belarus which didn’t exist back then as ethnicity and even a region played central role in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania is ridiculous.
在立陶宛大公國(guó)，魯塞尼亞貴族從來不是統(tǒng)治精英的骨干。原因很簡(jiǎn)單--要想?yún)⑴c國(guó)家的統(tǒng)治，就必須是天主教徒。在國(guó)家接受洗禮之前，格迪米尼德家族的不成文規(guī)定是--一旦你接受了東正教的洗禮，你就失去了獲得王位的權(quán)利。這就是為什么魯塞尼亞的土地被看作是供表兄弟或前敵人統(tǒng)治的省份。立陶宛民族的土地被認(rèn)為是一種遺產(chǎn)和中心。白俄羅斯在立陶宛大公國(guó)中作為民族甚至地區(qū)都不存在，你卻聲稱其在立陶宛大公國(guó)中發(fā)揮著核心作用，這是荒謬的。
, studies Science & History at St. Mary's Catholic High School (2023)
Lithuania and Hungary were enormous empires in the Middle Ages.
Nowadays Lithuania’s territory is only 65,300 sq km, and Hungary covers an area of only 93,030 sq km.
The Kingdom of Hungary was invaded and occupied by the Ottoman Empire in the 16th century. Greater Hungary survived as part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire until its collapse 1918. The multiethnic state broke up and Hungary’s territory was limited to the ethnic Magyar areas.
The Grand Duchy of Lithuania lost vast territories to Muscovy / Russia during the 16th century. Then it joined Poland to form the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which survived until its partition between Russia, Prussia, and Austria in 1795. Lithuania reemerged after the collapse of the Russian and German empires in 1918.
立陶宛和匈牙利在中世紀(jì)時(shí)是巨大的帝國(guó)。
現(xiàn)在立陶宛的領(lǐng)土只有65,300平方公里，而匈牙利的面積只有93,030平方公里。
匈牙利王國(guó)在16世紀(jì)被奧斯曼帝國(guó)入侵并占領(lǐng)。大匈牙利作為奧匈帝國(guó)的一部分一直生存到1918年帝國(guó)崩潰。這個(gè)多民族的國(guó)家解體了，現(xiàn)在匈牙利的領(lǐng)土僅限于馬扎爾族地區(qū)。
立陶宛大公國(guó)在16世紀(jì)失去了大片領(lǐng)土給莫斯科/俄羅斯。然后，它加入了波蘭，形成了波蘭-立陶宛聯(lián)邦，該聯(lián)邦一直存續(xù)到1795年被俄羅斯、普魯士和奧地利瓜分。立陶宛在1918年俄羅斯和德意志帝國(guó)瓦解后重新崛起。
A bit add-on: “and Hungary’s territory was limited to 60% of the ethnic Magyar areas”
補(bǔ)充一點(diǎn)："匈牙利的領(lǐng)土被限制在60%的馬扎爾族地區(qū)"
you forgot to mention, that most of the other territories with Hungarians (not all) were populated also by other nationalities. But, ofcourse, this little detail is inconvenient for your ideology.
你忘了說，其他大部分有匈牙利人的領(lǐng)土（不是全部）也有其他民族的人居住。但是，當(dāng)然，這個(gè)小細(xì)節(jié)對(duì)你持有的意識(shí)形態(tài)來說很不爽。
Like pretty much every single territory out there. What really matters is percentage of that ethnic group and if that makes them majority.
就像那里的幾乎每一個(gè)地區(qū)一樣。真正重要的是該族裔群體的百分比，以及這是否使他們成為多數(shù)。
An interesting aside to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth: all legislation had to be UNANIMOUS to become law. Think about that for a second. The government couldn’t get anything done because the legislature could never unanimously agree on anything.
關(guān)于波蘭-立陶宛聯(lián)邦的一個(gè)有趣的插曲：所有的立法都必須是所有貴族一致同意才能成為法律。想一想這一點(diǎn)吧。政府無法完成任何事情，因?yàn)榱⒎C(jī)構(gòu)永遠(yuǎn)無法就任何事情達(dá)成一致意見。
Hungary was broken up by the entente after 1919 because they could not brake the Hungarians during ww1. After the armictice at Padua they simply armed bands of chechs Serbs and rumanians to enter Hungary against the existing armistice terms. No wonder that Putin says that any agreement with the west is no more valuable and worthless even the paper that is written on.
匈牙利在1919年后被協(xié)約國(guó)拆散，因?yàn)樗麄冊(cè)谝粦?zhàn)期間無法阻止匈牙利人。在帕多瓦停戰(zhàn)后，他們只是簡(jiǎn)單地武裝了捷克人、塞爾維亞人和羅馬尼亞人的隊(duì)伍，違反現(xiàn)有的停戰(zhàn)條款進(jìn)入匈牙利。難怪普京說，與西方的任何協(xié)議都沒有價(jià)值，甚至連寫在上面的紙都沒有價(jià)值。
Are you serious? The Austro-Hungarian army was in tatters by late 1918, there was nothing the Hungarian half could have done to stem the tide. Also, by your logic bands of armed rabble from Serbia and Romania were able what (by your own admission) the full might of the Entente armies couldn't, give me a break.
你是認(rèn)真的嗎？奧匈帝國(guó)的軍隊(duì)在1918年底就已經(jīng)支離破碎了，匈牙利的一半軍隊(duì)根本無法阻止這種趨勢(shì)。另外，按照你的邏輯，塞爾維亞和羅馬尼亞的武裝烏合之眾能夠做到（你自己也承認(rèn)）協(xié)約國(guó)軍隊(duì)的全部力量都做不到的事情，讓我笑一下。