網(wǎng)友討論：為什么美國(guó)要禁止向中國(guó)出售芯片，這樣做不是讓中國(guó)科技更加獨(dú)立自主了嗎，中芯國(guó)際現(xiàn)在都可以制造7納米芯片了
The Chinese SMIC has been mass producing 7nm chips and exporting over 100m of 7nm chips to foreign companies outside China so far. The US banning chips'' sale to China has made China be independent of the US. Why?
譯文簡(jiǎn)介
網(wǎng)友討論：為什么美國(guó)要禁止向中國(guó)出售芯片，這樣做不是讓中國(guó)科技更加獨(dú)立自主了嗎，中芯國(guó)際現(xiàn)在都可以制造7納米芯片了
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網(wǎng)友討論：為什么美國(guó)要禁止向中國(guó)出售芯片，這樣做不是讓中國(guó)科技更加獨(dú)立自主了嗎，中芯國(guó)際現(xiàn)在都可以制造7納米芯片了
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處
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This phenomenon is the exact replica of the US blocking of China from space technology. The effect has proven to be the reverse. China wouldn't have achieved her great advancement in space technology without the US act.
美國(guó)阻止中國(guó)發(fā)展半導(dǎo)體技術(shù)和當(dāng)初阻止中國(guó)發(fā)展太空技術(shù)如出一轍。事實(shí)證明，這樣做只會(huì)取得適得其反的效果。如果當(dāng)初沒(méi)有美國(guó)阻擾的話，中國(guó)的太空技術(shù)不會(huì)取得那么大的進(jìn)展。
It’s just pure politician’s stupidity that have no economic and business sense.
China is already the world’s top chip designing country with the top 19 out of 20 fastest growing chip designing companies in the world. China itself is also the largest customer, the largest buyer for chips. Not just TSMC and Samsung, Intel, Qualcomm, Nvidia, AMD, semiconductor and related manufacturing equipment makers like ASML, Canon, Nikon, Sony etc… biggest market is China.
All these companies were happily doing business with China and bring profits to the US investors.
這只能怪那些愚蠢的政客，他們沒(méi)有經(jīng)濟(jì)和商業(yè)意識(shí)。
中國(guó)已經(jīng)是世界頂級(jí)芯片設(shè)計(jì)國(guó)家了，發(fā)展速度最快的20家芯片設(shè)計(jì)企業(yè)中有19家來(lái)自中國(guó)。中國(guó)本身又是芯片最大的消費(fèi)者和最大的買家。不僅僅是臺(tái)積電，三星，英特爾，高通，英偉達(dá)，AMD的最大市場(chǎng)在中國(guó)，就連與半導(dǎo)體生產(chǎn)設(shè)備相關(guān)的制造商ASML，佳能，尼康和索尼等企業(yè)的最大市場(chǎng)同樣也在中國(guó)。所有這些企業(yè)都樂(lè)于和中國(guó)做生意，這樣才能為美國(guó)投資者帶來(lái)利益
從中國(guó)角度來(lái)說(shuō)，如果這些企業(yè)不想和中國(guó)合作，那么中國(guó)可以自己生產(chǎn)所有的一切，實(shí)際上現(xiàn)在的芯片80%到90%都不是3納米和5納米制程的，蘋(píng)果推動(dòng)3納米和5納米芯片更多的是為了自己產(chǎn)品的差異化，以便從癡迷于蘋(píng)果手機(jī)和平板電腦的消費(fèi)者手中獲得更多的利潤(rùn)。
Absolutely correct. Very soon US & the world will be begging China for all sizes of chips. Mass production will make them cheaper too.
US is like the school yard bully. All BRAWN, NO BRAIN.
說(shuō)的很對(duì)，很快美國(guó)和世界要向中國(guó)乞求芯片了。大規(guī)模量產(chǎn)會(huì)讓它們變得更加便宜。
美國(guó)就像校園惡霸，只有肌肉沒(méi)有大腦。
“All BRAWN, NO BRAIN.”
Yet still has the best technology)) Do you not see a contradiction here?
只有肌肉，沒(méi)有大腦
但美國(guó)擁有最好的技術(shù)，你不覺(jué)得這很矛盾嗎？
It means the US engineers have brains but the US political elites have none and their actions will probably lead to China's semiconductor industry overtaking Silicon Valley and even to its demise. Instead of a win-win collaboration with the biggest market, the US hegemonic empire embarked on a win-lose suppressive containment of China's technology which is going to backfire.
China is no Toshiba or Japan which is still under US military occupation and US can't force China to Sign the Plaza Accord
這說(shuō)明美國(guó)的工程師有大腦，但美國(guó)的政治精英沒(méi)有，他們的行為可能會(huì)讓中國(guó)的半導(dǎo)體產(chǎn)業(yè)超過(guò)硅谷，甚至?xí)屆绹?guó)的半導(dǎo)體產(chǎn)業(yè)走向滅亡。霸道的美帝國(guó)不愿和最大的市場(chǎng)合作，相反他們對(duì)中國(guó)的技術(shù)發(fā)展采取的是一種你死我活式的壓制，這最終會(huì)導(dǎo)致適得其反。
中國(guó)不是東芝，也不是依然處于美國(guó)軍事占領(lǐng)下的日本，美國(guó)無(wú)法逼迫中國(guó)簽訂《廣場(chǎng)協(xié)議》
“US political elites have none" — yes, I agree to an extent.
If China think it can overtake the US — it is welcome to try. Maybe it can, maybe it can't.
Presently, however, saying that China is going to have the best technology is just funny)
“美國(guó)政治精英沒(méi)有大腦“，是的，某種程度上我認(rèn)為你說(shuō)的沒(méi)錯(cuò)
如果中國(guó)認(rèn)為自己可以超過(guò)美國(guó)，那么歡迎他去嘗試一下吧?；蛟S他可以做到，或許不能。
但目前要說(shuō)中國(guó)將擁有最好的技術(shù)是可笑的。
You think it is funny because you are unaware of the research in alternatives going on intensively in China. In May 2020, a paper on carbon-based semiconductors was published by Beijing University in the well-known American journal Science, in which the extraction and assembly method of "high-density carbon nanotubes" was mentioned, and many people even called this achievement - the basis for the industrialization of carbon-based semiconductors on a large scale. This means that the carbon nanotubes extracted with this method can be used to make chips.
At present, the material used to make chips is silicon-based, but the carbon-based chips made by carbon nanotubes have more advantages in cost, performance and power consumption compared with traditional silicon-based. Moreover, one of the most outstanding aspects of carbon-based chips is that its performance with 28nm process is comparable to the current mainstream 7nm silicon-based chips, so we can get the effect of the world's most advanced EUV by just using 28nm EUV.
China has also achieved the industry's top level in the extraction technology of carbon-based semiconductors.
你認(rèn)為好笑是因?yàn)槟悴恢乐袊?guó)正在密集的進(jìn)行替代性的研究。2020年5月在美國(guó)知名雜志《科學(xué)》上，北京大學(xué)刊登了一篇關(guān)于碳基半導(dǎo)體的論文，文中提到了“高密度碳納米管”的提取和組裝方法，很多人更是將這一成果稱為——碳基半導(dǎo)體進(jìn)入規(guī)模工業(yè)化的基礎(chǔ)，也就是說(shuō)利用這個(gè)方法提取的碳納米管，可以用來(lái)制取芯片。
目前制取芯片的材料是硅基，而碳納米管制取的碳基芯片，相比于傳統(tǒng)硅基在成本、性能和功耗上更加具有優(yōu)勢(shì)。而且碳基芯片最突出的一個(gè)地方就是，28納米制程的碳基芯片與目前主流7納米硅基芯片的性能相當(dāng)，所以我們只需用28納米的光刻機(jī)，便可以獲得全球最先進(jìn)EUV光刻機(jī)的效果。
中國(guó)在碳基半導(dǎo)體的提取技術(shù)上，也已經(jīng)做到了行業(yè)頂尖水平。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處
“You think it is funny because you are unaware of the research in alternatives going on intensively in China.”
Nah, I think it's funny because “the world" is also doing some research. And competition is a good thing.
不，我認(rèn)為這很有趣，因?yàn)槭澜缫苍谧鲆恍┭芯?。而且相互?jìng)爭(zhēng)是一件好事。
But AFAIK, China cannot buy the latest lithography machines. So it will take them years to catch up with other countries.
但據(jù)我所知，中國(guó)買不到最新的光刻機(jī)，所以他們還要數(shù)年時(shí)間才能趕上其他國(guó)家。
The fact that China is literally challanging the West even when sanctioned is already an achievement.
中國(guó)在被制裁的情況下還能挑戰(zhàn)西方就已經(jīng)是一項(xiàng)成就了
Actually, China flies 1970’s Russian Space tech. It has merely copied what others did decades earlier without achieving anything new.
It has done so while 600 Million Chinese Citizens live below the poverty line with monthly incomes of 140 USD or less.
實(shí)際上中國(guó)使用的還是上世紀(jì)70年代的俄羅斯技術(shù)。他們只是在重復(fù)別人幾十年前就已經(jīng)做過(guò)的事情而已，并沒(méi)有取得任何新的成就。
而與此同時(shí)，..六億....，每月收入只有140美元或者更少。
Has the United States or Russia ever landed on the back side of the moon? Have any other countries landed on the moon besides China, the United States, and Russia?
美國(guó)或者俄羅斯有登陸月球背面嗎？除了中國(guó)美國(guó)俄羅斯以外，還有其他國(guó)家登陸過(guò)月球嗎？
Chinese government lifted over 600 million people out of poverty. A great achievement , and as a human being I celebrate that, as anyone with a right mind.
Just 40 years ago, China was a poor country. But they worked hard to achieve what they are today.
If everything is fake, then why the US is acting Hysterical. To the level that they use Mafia-style dirty tricks to attack, accuse, creating conspiracy theories, bad-mouthing, threatening other countries to stop doing business with Chinese tech companies, sending aircraft carriers and war vessels constantly to provoke, forming military and intelligence alliances, set up hundred of military bases around,… to contain China.
Who on earth wishes others to stop or slow down progress and development. A decent person don't have that kind of heart. Think mate, think .
中國(guó)政府讓六億多中國(guó)人擺脫了貧困，這是一個(gè)偉大的成就。作為一個(gè)人，作為一個(gè)頭腦正常的人，我要為此表示祝賀。在四十年以前，中國(guó)還是一個(gè)貧窮的國(guó)家，但他們努力工作才有了今天的成就。
如果中國(guó)的發(fā)展都是假的，那么為什么美國(guó)要表現(xiàn)的如此歇斯底里。甚至到了使用黑手黨式的骯臟伎倆來(lái)攻擊，指責(zé)中國(guó)，制造陰謀論，誹謗中國(guó)，還威脅其他國(guó)家不要和中國(guó)高科技企業(yè)做生意，而且還不斷的派航母和軍艦來(lái)挑釁中國(guó)，為了壓制中國(guó)，美國(guó)還組建了軍事情報(bào)聯(lián)盟，在中國(guó)周邊設(shè)立了上百個(gè)軍事基地。
究竟是誰(shuí)在希望別人停止或放慢發(fā)展的腳步。一個(gè)正派的人是不會(huì)有這樣的想法的。想想吧，伙計(jì)。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處
I'm actually quoting China Daily
我只是在引用《中國(guó)日?qǐng)?bào)》而已
Doesn't America have its own problems? Mass shootings occur regularly in America, the United States consumes 60% of the world's drugs each year, and homelessness is everywhere.
難道美國(guó)就沒(méi)有自己的問(wèn)題嗎？美國(guó)社會(huì)經(jīng)常發(fā)生大規(guī)模槍擊，美國(guó)每年要消費(fèi)全世界60%的毒品，美國(guó)無(wú)家可歸的人隨處可見(jiàn)。
the number of people lifters out of absolute poverty by UN standards in China is already motte than the whole population of USA. Of course per capita income is small in China as compared to the US and don’t forget the US has the privilege of limitless printing the dollars but has the highest national debt.
按照聯(lián)合國(guó)的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，中國(guó)脫離絕對(duì)貧困的人口數(shù)量要比美國(guó)總?cè)丝谶€要多。當(dāng)然，和美國(guó)比，中國(guó)人均收入依然較低，但不要忘了美國(guó)擁有無(wú)限印刷美元的特權(quán)，但美國(guó)國(guó)債卻是世界最高。
Only shows you know nothing of China and Chinese. 800m Chinese by the coasts and on the plains are already middle class or rich, and China is world no 1 markets because of them. Most of that 600m still poor are in rural areas in the mountains harder to develop. They can get urban income if they leave the hills.
這只能證明你對(duì)中國(guó)和中國(guó)人一無(wú)所知。生活在中國(guó)沿海和平原地區(qū)的八億中國(guó)人已經(jīng)有了中產(chǎn)階級(jí)或富裕的生活，正因如此，中國(guó)才成為了世界最大的市場(chǎng)。6億貧困人口中，大多數(shù)生活在難以發(fā)展的山區(qū)農(nóng)村地區(qū)。如果他們離開(kāi)山區(qū)，他們也可以獲得城市里的高收入。
The system makes it impossible to think beyond the next election cycle. So when Trump did the banning what did Trump care? It would be Joe’s (heh) responsibility to clean up the mess.
美國(guó)的體制使得他們無(wú)法思考下一個(gè)選舉周期以后的事情。所以當(dāng)特朗普下達(dá)禁令時(shí)，他不需要擔(dān)心什么，因?yàn)榍謇頎€攤子是拜登的責(zé)任。
Not long ago I got into a heated discussion on Quora with some China haters and hi-tech guys who thinks China cannot survive the ban on sale of EUV machine.
It's not even up to three years and the Chinese are bulldozing through the obstacles to progress! What a testament to human indomitable spirit.
不久之前我在quora上與一些討厭中國(guó)的人和高科技人士進(jìn)行了一番激烈的討論，他們認(rèn)為中國(guó)無(wú)法在EUV光刻機(jī)禁令下生存下來(lái)。
甚至還不到三年，中國(guó)就鏟除了前進(jìn)的障礙。這是對(duì)人類不屈不撓精神的一種證明。
bulldozing? they have DUV, cannot import EUV, and it’s unknown whether they can produce that locally. meanwhile, TSMC and others are 2–3 gens further on
鏟除了所有前進(jìn)的障礙？他們有DUV，但無(wú)法進(jìn)口EUV，他們自己是否能夠生產(chǎn)EUV光刻機(jī)尚不得而知。與此同時(shí)，臺(tái)積電和其他半導(dǎo)體廠商的芯片制程要領(lǐng)先大陸兩到三代。
They can and they are doing it. That is producing 7nm chips.
TSMC et al to be 2 gen ahead but SMIC and others are playing catch ups. No shame in that either.
Anyone who works hard can achieve success and make progress even in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles place in their part by enemies of progress.
他們能做到，他們正在這樣做。那就是他們正在生產(chǎn)7納米的芯片。
臺(tái)積電的確領(lǐng)先兩代，但中芯國(guó)際和其他廠商正在追趕，這一點(diǎn)也不可恥。
即便是面對(duì)領(lǐng)先你的敵人給你設(shè)下了看似不可逾越的障礙，只要努力任何人都能成功跨越取得進(jìn)步。
You are right Adesina. That's the spirit. Neccessity is said to be the mother of Inventions.
你說(shuō)的對(duì)，這就是精神的力量。需求是創(chuàng)新之母
Stop being delusional, China is 1–2 decades behind on chip technology and it will get even wider. Technology development is relied on commercial success, ASML has a huge lead company in the field and the top 2 chip makers (Samsung, TSMC) in the worlds are ASML’s shareholders which pretty much guarantee its dominance leading edge for decades to come.
不要妄想了，中國(guó)在芯片技術(shù)上落后十到二十年，而且差距還會(huì)繼續(xù)拉大。技術(shù)發(fā)展依賴于商業(yè)成功，ASML在技術(shù)領(lǐng)域擁有巨大的領(lǐng)先優(yōu)勢(shì)，而且世界頭部?jī)纱笮酒圃鞆S商（三星和臺(tái)積電）都是ASML的股東，這幾乎保證了ASML在未來(lái)幾十年的優(yōu)勢(shì)。
When did China mass produce 7nm chips?
中國(guó)7納米芯片是什么時(shí)候開(kāi)始生產(chǎn)的
Since 10/2021. SMIC has been quiet about it. They just make it and sell it.
SMIC has been quietly making 7nm chips for almost a year now and the West is just finding out.
中國(guó)7納米芯片從2021年10月開(kāi)始生產(chǎn)。中芯國(guó)際一直沒(méi)有對(duì)外發(fā)布公告，只一心生產(chǎn)和銷售。
中芯國(guó)際悄悄生產(chǎn)7納米芯片已經(jīng)有近一年的時(shí)間，西方直到現(xiàn)在才剛剛發(fā)現(xiàn)。
To be fair, this tactic worked for China.If China had as little resources as say Japan or other small and poor countries, then China would not have the sheer momentum and margins to muscle through obstacles either.
老實(shí)說(shuō)，這種戰(zhàn)術(shù)對(duì)中國(guó)是有效的。如果中國(guó)是一個(gè)像日本或其他又小又弱的國(guó)家的話，那么就不會(huì)有充足的動(dòng)力和利潤(rùn)去克服障礙了。