歷史迷討論：入侵歐洲的游牧民族匈人到底是什么來頭？匈人/匈奴/匈牙利人之辨

Who were the Huns, the nomadic horse warriors who invaded ancient Europe?

2022-10-25 yzy86 14233 39 4 收藏糾錯(cuò)&舉報(bào)

譯文簡(jiǎn)介

“匈牙利人”（Hungarian）是一個(gè)外來名稱，這是很明確的，因?yàn)楫?dāng)時(shí)的歐洲人以為他們是匈人又回來了，所以才發(fā)明了這個(gè)名稱。在匈牙利當(dāng)?shù)?，“匈牙利人”的名稱是“馬扎爾人（Magyar）

正文翻譯

（來自歷史組）

評(píng)論翻譯

Parianos
They were the Huns: Wandering equine fighters who stormed the early Old World.

他們是匈人，是流浪四方、席卷了早先那個(gè)舊世界的馬背戰(zhàn)士。

The funny thing being, that really is just about all we know about them. Yeah man we do have some second hand accounts about their culture and clues about their ethnic origins and what not, but all that tells us is they are “Mongolians: the prequel”.

（回）有趣的是，我們對(duì)他們的了解確實(shí)僅限于此。是的，我們確實(shí)掌握了一些關(guān)于他們文化的二手資料和關(guān)于他們種族起源的線索之類的，但所有這些告訴我們，他們其實(shí)是《蒙古人：前傳》。

dan carlin said (i think) the Huns were second rate at murder and plunder. the real nomadic horse warriors stayed and fought if out on the steppes, the Huns couldn't compete so they moved west.

（回）（我記得）丹·卡林說過，匈人在殺人和劫掠方面只是二流選手。真正的游牧族馬背戰(zhàn)士一直留在草原上征戰(zhàn)，匈人無力與之競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，所以他們遷往了西方。
（譯注：丹·卡林為美國(guó)播客《鐵桿歷史》主持人）
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Well kinda. He was talking about how the steppe tribes often moved in waves, being pushed westward by stronger tribes in the east who then displace the next tribe and so on. It’s a theory that this was the case for the Huns as well.

（回）嗯，算是吧。他談?wù)摰氖遣菰柯浣?jīng)常會(huì)一波波地遷徙，他們會(huì)被東部更強(qiáng)大的部落趕到西方，然后取代下一個(gè)部落，以此類推。有一種理論認(rèn)為，匈人也是這種情況。

PM_YOUR_BEST_JOKES
Why were the eastern tribes stronger?

為什么東部的部落會(huì)更強(qiáng)？

I think what he means is the weaker of the steppe tribes in the east were forced to leave by stronger tribes, not necessarily that tribes from the eastern areas of the east were stronger than tribes from western areas of the east.
In other words, if the Huns had been stronger, they would've stayed and driven out other steppe tribes who would've taken on the role of the Huns and gone west to Europe.

（回）我覺得他的意思是，在東部，草原部落中的弱者會(huì)被強(qiáng)大的部落逼走，東部地區(qū)靠東的部落不一定比東部地區(qū)靠西的部落更強(qiáng)。
換句話說，如果當(dāng)時(shí)的匈人更強(qiáng)大，他們就會(huì)留在那里，并趕走其他草原部落，而這些被趕走的部落就會(huì)充當(dāng)起匈人的角色，并向西進(jìn)入歐洲。

He is not saying eastern tribes were stronger. The steppe are in the east. So, 2 tribes duke it out in east. Loser gets pushed west and starts wrecking shit in Europe. Winner stays in the Steppes

（回）他并不是說東部的部落更強(qiáng)。大草原就是位于東部的。所以，是兩個(gè)部落在東部一決高下。敗者被趕到西邊，并開始在歐洲打劫殺人。贏家留在了大草原上。

When you are a true steppe warrior, you realize fermented horse milk makes you stronger than sweets and alcohol. Makes sense that people from a given type of environment would have preference for it, not just for nostalgic reasons, but because their culture is adapted to it, in its set of skills and its values. From a nomad's point of view, the steppe is heaven - freedom to roam, less people to compete w/, freedom from kings and the toil of agriculture, abundant herd animals for food, less disease (compared to Europe, China).

（回）如果你是真正的草原戰(zhàn)士，你就會(huì)意識(shí)到，相比于甜食和酒，馬奶酒更能讓你強(qiáng)大。來自特定環(huán)境類型的族群對(duì)它有偏好也是說得通的，不僅是出于懷舊的原因，也是因?yàn)樗麄兊奈幕谝幌盗屑寄芎蛢r(jià)值觀方面都很適應(yīng)它。從游牧民的角度來看，大草原就是天堂，可以自由漫游，也沒多少人同你競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，不受國(guó)王節(jié)制，也不需要累死累活地務(wù)農(nóng)，有豐富的牧群作為食物，疫病也較少（和歐洲/中國(guó)相比）。

I get what you mean. The step nomad life also means that you need a very large territory, compared to agriculture based societies, to feed your livestock (and another tribe leaving your next destination as you arrive is not an option), so aggressive behavior would be beneficial.
And if you frequently run into stronger warriors, and you are nomadic anyways - might as well look somewhere else.

（回）我明白你意思。和以農(nóng)業(yè)為根基的社會(huì)相比，游牧生活也意味著你需要保有非常大的領(lǐng)地，這樣才能養(yǎng)活你的家畜（當(dāng)你到達(dá)時(shí)，另一個(gè)部落離開你的下一個(gè)目的地是不可能的），所以侵略行為會(huì)帶來益處。
而如果你頻繁遭遇更強(qiáng)大的戰(zhàn)士，反正你本來就是游牧民族，那不妨去別的地方看看。

I don’t have a definite answer on that, but one of the main theories is there was more tribes in the east so more competition so the strongest survive and they hone their military abilities. Another is contact with China. Essentially if you’re used to fighting the Chinese, most other enemies are a walk in the park. Again I can’t confirm the validity of these, but they make sense.

（回）我沒有明確的答案，但在各大主要理論中，有一種認(rèn)為，在東部，部落數(shù)更多，所以競(jìng)爭(zhēng)就更激烈，所以最強(qiáng)的才能生存下來，他們也由此磨練了自己的軍事能力。再有就是和中國(guó)的接觸。從根本上說，如果你習(xí)慣于和中國(guó)人對(duì)戰(zhàn)，那其他大部分?jǐn)橙硕既缣侥胰∥锪恕Ｎ覠o法確認(rèn)這些理論的真實(shí)性，但它們有其道理。
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If you're used to fighting larger empires like China, then going to fight the divided European duchies would be relatively easy. Europe couldn't unify to save their life. Just look at all the failed Crusades as an example.

（回）如果你習(xí)慣于和中國(guó)這樣的大帝國(guó)對(duì)戰(zhàn)，那么去攻打四分五裂的歐洲各公國(guó)就會(huì)相對(duì)容易了。歐洲無法靠統(tǒng)一來救他們的命。舉個(gè)例子，只要看看所有失敗的十字軍東征就知道了。

Yeah the mongols walked over the people in the west as they couldn’t unite, and they were used to fighting in a higher league of warfare with the Chinese.

（回）是的，蒙古人輕松戰(zhàn)勝了西方的民族，因?yàn)樗麄儧]有能力統(tǒng)一，而蒙古人習(xí)慣的是和中國(guó)人打一種聯(lián)盟程度更高的戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)。

Doesn't make sense. In the steppes there's only sheep and grass. The real richness, in form of tribute or plunder, was outside. I read that in pre-Genghis Khan mongolia there was a tier system in the tribes: the ones near China were the most rich and influential, while Temujin was kicked out to the northern limits where the poorer mongols lived.

（回）這說不通啊。大草原上只有羊和草。而真正的富饒都在草原之外，是以貢品或劫掠的形式取得的。我讀到過，在成吉思汗之前的蒙古，各部落中存在一種等級(jí)制度：那些靠近中國(guó)的部落是最富有也是影響力最大的，而鐵木真則被趕到了極北的領(lǐng)土，在那里生活的是更窮的蒙古人。

There are limits to the theory that weaker tribes got forced out of central steppes. But having much wealth could have been a hindrance to their way of like and war. It was more stuff that would just slow them down. They just needed a a way to keep their horses and people fed and healthy and access to materials for bows, arrows, etc. Their lifestyles were unchanged for thousands of years.

（回）弱小部落被迫離開中央草原的理論是有局限性的。但擁有大量的財(cái)富可能會(huì)妨礙他們的生活方式以及戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)。更多的家累只會(huì)拖慢他們的速度。他們只是需要一種方法來養(yǎng)活他們的馬和人，并保持其健康，以及獲得制作弓和箭的材料等等。他們的生活方式幾千年來都沒有改變。

Mendozacheers
The Eurasian steppe is a fascinating place. Several nomadic cultures has migrated over the steppe throughout the ages, strongly associated with horse riding.
The domestication of the horse is believed to have originated in the steppe.

歐亞大草原是個(gè)迷人的地方。古往今來，有若干個(gè)游牧文化在草原上完成了遷徙，和他們騎馬有密切的關(guān)系。
據(jù)信，馬的馴化就是從這片大草原開始的。
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The Yamnya culture is theorized to have spread the indo-european language (Kurgan hypothesis) ca 3000 BC.
The Scythians were very romantizised by the ancient greeks as horse-riding amazon warriors, originating from the steppe.
The Huns obviously.
The Mongol Empire.

據(jù)推測(cè)，亞姆那文化（即豎穴墓文化）在公元前3000年傳播了印歐語言（根據(jù)墳冢假說）。
斯基泰人被古希臘人浪漫化為馬背上的亞馬遜戰(zhàn)士，起源于大草原。
匈人顯然也是如此。
還有蒙古帝國(guó)。

Sir Barry Cunliffe about the Scythians explains that the eurasian steppe is gradually "greener" westwards and colder/harsh in east. Therefore the steppe creates a natural urge to travel west (towards, and into, Europe). The steppe is also optimal for horse grazing as well as travelling by horse.
Edit: as other's have pointed out, the Turks and Magyars also originated from the steppe.

巴里·坎利夫爵士（譯注：英國(guó)考古學(xué)家）在談到斯基泰人時(shí)解釋說，歐亞大草原越往西就“越綠”，而在東方則更為寒冷/嚴(yán)酷。因此，大草原上產(chǎn)生了一種向西遷徙的自然沖動(dòng)（朝向并進(jìn)入歐洲）。大草原也是牧馬和騎馬旅行的最佳地點(diǎn)。
補(bǔ)充：正如其他人指出的，土耳其人和馬扎爾人也起源于草原。
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Don’t forget about the Turks! They originally migrated from the Eurasian steppe as well.

（回）不要忘記土耳其人！他們最初也是從歐亞大草原遷徙過來的。

The horses that the Turks rode where called Turkomene horses. These horses became the male ancestors of all Thoroughbreds and all sport horses that trace to them. This has been proven through genome studies. The father of the modern TB horse was a Turkomene. So, if you are ever watching the Kentucky Derby, all the contestants descend from Turkish steppe war horses

（回）土耳其人騎的馬被稱為土庫曼馬。這些馬成為了所有純血馬和所有運(yùn)動(dòng)用馬的父系祖先。這一點(diǎn)已經(jīng)通過基因組研究得到了證明?，F(xiàn)代純血馬的父親就是土庫曼馬。因此，如果你觀看過肯塔基德比比賽（譯注：每年在美國(guó)肯塔基州路易斯維爾丘吉爾園馬場(chǎng)舉行的賽馬），所有參賽馬匹都是土耳其草原戰(zhàn)馬的后代。
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All Turkic people descended from south-central/south-east Siberia, and later occupied Central Asia(including modern day Turkmenistan) and West Asia and Eastern Europe.

（回）所有的突厥民族都是西伯利亞中南部/東南部人的后裔，后來占領(lǐng)了中亞（包括今天的土庫曼斯坦）、西亞和東歐。

All the Central Asian countries have different tribal ethnicities spread throughout them. And most people in tribes from Central Asia are not Ottoman “Turks.”

（回）所有中亞國(guó)家都有各種不同的部族散布其間。而中亞各部落中的大部分人都不是奧斯曼“土耳其人”。

Oh yeah, you guys are def not Ottoman Turks but what I'm talking bout is we are both Turkic and both Turkish Turks and Turkmen Turks come from the Oghuz Tribe.

（回）是的，你們絕對(duì)不是奧斯曼土耳其人，但我的意思是我們都是突厥人，土耳其的土耳其人和土庫曼的土耳其人都來自烏古斯部落。
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People who are contemporary Turkish (from Turkey) don’t have as much in common with other Turkic ethnic groups as they think.

（回）當(dāng)代土耳其人（來自土耳其）和其他突厥民族的共同點(diǎn)，并沒有他們想象的那么多。

My point is that — and you know this — Turkey tries to act like even indigenous Siberians and Altaic people are “Turkish” simply because they’re “TurKIC” but it’s the other way around. There’s been so much migration and intermarriage and rape that all the Turkic peoples are different, are arguably more related to Iranian people than current Turkish people, and Turkey needs to deal with it.
Edit: Turkmen are the closest of Central Asians to Turks but they’re a different ethnic group nevertheless.

我的觀點(diǎn)是（你也很清楚這一點(diǎn)）：土耳其試圖把土生土長(zhǎng)的西伯利亞人和阿爾泰人都?xì)w入“土耳其人”，僅僅因?yàn)樗麄兪恰巴回嗜恕?，但情況恰恰相反。一直都存在大量的移民、通婚和強(qiáng)奸，所以所有的突厥人都是不同的，可以說和伊朗人的關(guān)系都比和現(xiàn)代土耳其人密切，這一點(diǎn)土耳其必須自己去消化。
補(bǔ)充：土庫曼人是中亞人中最接近土耳其人的民族，盡管如此，他們?nèi)詫儆诓煌拿褡濉?/b>

Also yea I agree, Turkish people like to see themselves as like the leaders of Turks or something and it is annoying, sorry on behalf of other Turks I guess.

（回）我同意，土耳其人喜歡把自己看成是突厥人領(lǐng)袖之類的角色，這很招人煩，我想代表其他土耳其人表示歉意。

Revanur
Y’all forget the Hungarians. They came from the steppes, raided Europe for almost 200 years and then did what no other horse riding steppe nation did: settled and built a country that still stands after 1200 years.

你們都忘了匈牙利人。他們也來自草原，在歐洲掠奪了近兩百年，然后做成了其他騎馬草原民族沒有做成的事：定居并建立了一個(gè)國(guó)家，而且在一千兩百年后仍屹立不倒。

It's a funny coinicidence, but the names have nothing to do with each other

（回）這是一個(gè)很好玩的巧合，但這兩個(gè)名字完全扯不上關(guān)系。

? It's not, Hungarian is specifically an exonym that was invented because the Europeans thought they were the Huns come again.
The Hungarian endonym is "Magyar".

（回）？不是的，“匈牙利人”（Hungarian）是一個(gè)外來名稱，這是很明確的，因?yàn)楫?dāng)時(shí)的歐洲人以為他們是匈人又回來了，所以才發(fā)明了這個(gè)名稱。
在匈牙利當(dāng)?shù)?，“匈牙利人”的名稱是“馬扎爾人（Magyar）”

Yeah it is an exonym that stuck for some reason. We have always called ourselves some variation of “magyar”. Mogyer, magyer, megyer. Although we do have extensive folk mythology lixing us with the Huns going as far back as the 1100’s which is a bit strange. But then again the same chronicle says that the Hungarians are descended from one of the sons of Noah, which was a common Christian trope at the time.

（回）是的，這是個(gè)外來的名稱，出于某種原因沿用了下來。我們總是稱自己為“馬扎爾人”的某種變體。比如Mogyer, magyer, megyer。雖然我們確實(shí)有大量的民間神話將我們與匈人聯(lián)系在一起，最早可以追溯到1100年，這就有點(diǎn)奇怪了。但同一本編年史又說，匈牙利人是諾亞某個(gè)兒子的后裔，這在當(dāng)時(shí)是基督教的一種很常見的說辭。
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It actually was derived from a tribal confederation known as the “Ungarn”. Funnily enough most of their tribes were actually Turkic, which is why Hungary more often then not gets included in Turkish nationalism. This discovery actually resulted in a treaty of Friendship between Hungary and Turkey right after the Turkish republic was founded. Also prolly why they are observers of the organization of Turkic states.

（回）其實(shí)是源于一個(gè)被稱為“Ungarn”的部落聯(lián)盟。有趣的是，其中的大部分部落其實(shí)是突厥人，這就是為什么匈牙利經(jīng)常被納入土耳其民族主義。事實(shí)上，這一發(fā)現(xiàn)導(dǎo)致了匈牙利和土耳其在土耳其共和國(guó)成立之后簽訂了一紙友好條約。這很可能也是他們成為突厥國(guó)家組織觀察員的原因。

Funny, "Ungarn" is the modern name for Hungary in norwegian.

（回）有趣的是，“Ungarn”也是挪威語中匈牙利的現(xiàn)代名稱。

DariusStrada
Heard they were related to the Xiongnu in the east. Probably not the same confederation - they must have been a group that migrated west. Many khanates were quite extensive tho

聽說他們和東方的匈奴有關(guān)系?？赡懿粚儆谕粋€(gè)聯(lián)盟，他們肯定是一個(gè)向西遷徙的群體。但有很多汗國(guó)都是相當(dāng)巨大的

In Chinese historical teachings, the Xiongnu and the Huns are pretty much conflated. The "Xiong" syllable in Xiongnu is modern Chinese's first syllable for Hungary, so it's essentially the same as Hun.
The Chinese also make something of the fact that Hungarian people are named with their family name first, then given name last (just like Chinese names) although that particular lix appears to be concidental.

（回）在中國(guó)的歷史教學(xué)中，匈奴和匈人幾乎被混為了一談。匈奴中的“xiong”這個(gè)音節(jié)是現(xiàn)代漢語中匈牙利的第一個(gè)音節(jié)，所以它基本上和匈奴是一回事。
中國(guó)人還利用了一個(gè)事實(shí)來做文章，即匈牙利人的名字是姓在前，名在后（就像中國(guó)人的名字一樣），盡管這種特定的聯(lián)系貌似是一種巧合。

Yeah, that's why I think they must be ethnically related but were different political entity that decided to go West

（回）是的，這就是為什么我認(rèn)為他們?cè)诜N族上肯定有聯(lián)系，但卻是決定去往西方的不同政治實(shí)體。
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My impression - it could be wrong - is that the relationship between the Xiongnu and the Huns is still in debate, at least in serious academic discussions. The Huns emerged after the Eastern Han dynasty divided the Xiongnu tribes and drove some into central Asia, but that alone is not a strong piece of evidence. There might have been some molecular biology studies on this topic, but I don't remember the conclusions.

（回）我的印象（可能是錯(cuò)的）是：匈奴和匈人之間的關(guān)系尚存爭(zhēng)論，至少在嚴(yán)肅的學(xué)術(shù)討論中是這樣的。匈人是在東漢王朝分裂了匈奴各部并將其中一部分部落趕到中亞后才出現(xiàn)的，但僅僅這一點(diǎn)不足以成為強(qiáng)有力的證據(jù)?？赡艽嬖谝恍╆P(guān)于這個(gè)話題的分子生物學(xué)研究，但我不記得結(jié)論是什么了。

kangyrooCourtJuror
A coalition of nomadic tribes who had their way with eastern europe, the forefathers of the khans

他們是一個(gè)肆意蹂躪東歐的游牧部落聯(lián)盟，是那些大汗的祖先。
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There is a Hungarian myth I read once, probably in other steppe transplant cultures too, that describes the leaders of a tribe chasing a huge stag…and that hunt led them to the west.

（回）我曾經(jīng)讀過一個(gè)匈牙利神話，可能在其他草原遷徙文化中也有，說是一個(gè)部落首領(lǐng)在追獵一頭巨大的公鹿...正是這次狩獵把他們引向了西方。

Iirc there was a study showing how close relatives (I think like 1st cousins) were found where one was in afansievo culture in asia and the other was in Eastern Europe. Showing how much movement is possible in a generation

（回）如果我沒記錯(cuò)，曾在一項(xiàng)研究中展示了兩個(gè)近親（我記得是堂兄弟姐妹）是如何被找到的，其中一個(gè)位于亞洲的阿凡納謝沃文化中，另一個(gè)則在東歐。這就證明了在一代人中能流動(dòng)多遠(yuǎn)。
（譯注：阿凡納謝沃文化（Afanasievo）的相關(guān)文物發(fā)現(xiàn)于西伯利亞中部偏南，葉尼塞河附近的米努辛斯克盆地）
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velvetstigma
How to defeat the Huns.
We must be swift as the coursing rivers.
With the force of a great typhoon.
With all the strength of a raging fire.
Mysterious as the dark side of the moooooon.

如何打敗匈人：
我們必須像奔流的河水一樣迅疾。
要具備大型臺(tái)風(fēng)的勁力。
要具備熊熊火焰的烈度。
要像月之暗面一樣神秘。

I was just gonna say.. take their horses away.

（回）我只想說...把他們的馬帶走。

That just makes them madder!

（回）這只會(huì)讓他們更加瘋狂！

Horse archers aren’t as effective without horses…

（回）沒有馬的馬弓手，就不會(huì)那么有效了...

DominikFisara
They were probs the Xiongnu. Dan Jones talked about it in his fantastic book, Powers and Thrones (highly recommend). By looking at juniper trees, scientists worked out that there were terrible droughts that lead to mass migrations across the steppe

他們很可能是匈奴人。丹·瓊斯在他那本神奇的書《權(quán)力與王座》（強(qiáng)烈推薦）中談到過這個(gè)問題。通過觀察檜樹，科學(xué)家們推算出，導(dǎo)致大規(guī)模草原遷徙的，是曾經(jīng)出現(xiàn)過的可怕的干旱。

Major droughts would have further reaching impact than just agriculture.
As the land dries up, the animals they hunt for food would have migrated.

（回）大旱產(chǎn)生的深遠(yuǎn)影響可遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)不止于農(nóng)業(yè)。
隨著土地變干，他們獵殺來當(dāng)口糧的動(dòng)物也會(huì)遷徙。

AzertyKeys
The northern Xiongnu who migrated west after being pulverized by Emperor Wu of Han

是被漢武帝擊潰后西遷的北匈奴。

drlongtrl
The one thing I know about the Huns is that you can't defeat them if they sent you daughters when in fact you did explicitly ask for sons.

關(guān)于匈人，我就知道一件事：如果你明確要求他們送來兒子，而他們卻給你送來了女兒，那你就無法擊敗他們。

search_no_more
The Hunnish-Turco-Mongol peoples come from north of the Great Wall and traveled easily across the Steppes. With their horses and gers/yurts, the Eurasian Steppes were like the sea for them.

匈奴-突厥-蒙古民族來自長(zhǎng)城以北，很容易就能穿越大草原。有了馬匹和蒙古包/氈房，歐亞大草原對(duì)他們來說就如同大海。

devilthedankdawg
Tacitus said their origin was on the frozen ocean. People of simikar names were described by the Indians and Chines that descended from the far north. Id guess the Huns came from Siberia.

塔西佗說過，他們起源于冰封的海洋之上。在印度人和中國(guó)人的描述中，有著類似名字的民族是極北地區(qū)諸族的后代。我的猜測(cè)是匈人來自西伯利亞。

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歐洲游牧民族匈人匈奴

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歷史迷討論：入侵歐洲的游牧民族匈人到底是什么來頭？匈人/匈奴/匈牙利人之辨

歷史迷討論：入侵歐洲的游牧民族匈人到底是什么來頭？匈人/匈奴/匈牙利人之辨