網(wǎng)友討論：為什么法國(guó)對(duì)德國(guó)感到不滿？
Why France is Annoyed with Germany
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網(wǎng)友：對(duì)德國(guó)不滿是法國(guó)的一向傳統(tǒng)。
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網(wǎng)友討論：為什么法國(guó)對(duì)德國(guó)感到不滿？
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France being annoyed with Germany is simply tradition.
對(duì)德國(guó)不滿是法國(guó)的一向傳統(tǒng)。
Some things never change
有些事情從未發(fā)生過(guò)改變
Next we would see France and UK getting annoyed at each other
接下來(lái)我們將看到法國(guó)和英國(guó)彼此之間感到不滿
As an American, I can certainly understand Macron's position of wanting less reliance on the US for defense.
作為一個(gè)美國(guó)人，我能理解馬克龍希望減少對(duì)美國(guó)國(guó)防依賴的立場(chǎng)
The issue is that Germany is a vassal state to the US, but France is not. The other issue being of course the nonsensical energy policy of Germany, and for that one I don't even know what to say, I still can't understand how the German political class can be so clueless in that field.
問(wèn)題是德國(guó)是美國(guó)的附屬國(guó)，但法國(guó)不是。德國(guó)另一個(gè)問(wèn)題在于其荒謬的能源政策，對(duì)于這個(gè)問(wèn)題，我甚至都不知道該說(shuō)什么好，我依然無(wú)法理解德國(guó)政界怎么會(huì)在這個(gè)領(lǐng)域上如此的無(wú)知
Disagreeing on certain topics doesn't mean friendship is crumbling.
在某些問(wèn)題上存在不同意見(jiàn)并不意味著友誼的破裂。
As a german, I have to say that I agree in most of the points with France.. our government really needs to strengthen its army
作為一個(gè)德國(guó)人，我不得不說(shuō)我同意法國(guó)的大部分觀點(diǎn)。我們政府真的需要加強(qiáng)自己軍隊(duì)的實(shí)力了
Your green party is really a big joke
你們的綠黨就是一個(gè)天大的笑話
@Karan Kapoor no they aren't the conservatives are
不，他們不是，保守黨才是笑話
Given the recent Russian invasion, USA is a much more reliable ally in war compared to France (ask Ukraine)
Why try making a new platform when there is a working one on the market?
鑒于最近俄羅斯對(duì)烏克蘭的入侵，和法國(guó)相比，美國(guó)才是戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)中更加可靠的盟友
市場(chǎng)上已經(jīng)有了一個(gè)可靠的平臺(tái)了，為什么我們還要再創(chuàng)建一個(gè)新的平臺(tái)呢？
No in defence security Germany were right. EU still far behind from create it own weapon .France just angry nobody want buy they old rafale
不，在國(guó)防安全方面，德國(guó)是對(duì)的，歐盟在武器制造方面依然遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)落后，法國(guó)只是生氣沒(méi)有人買他們老舊的陣風(fēng)戰(zhàn)機(jī)而已
I'm from the Netherlands and I completely side with Macron on this regarding European defence industry. How can you ever develop your own industry if you keep spending all your money on foreign manufactured (mostly American) products. On a geopolitical level Europe behaves like a na?ef little kid that goes from one dependency, Russian gas, to the next, Chinese manufacturing and the US defence industry.
我來(lái)自荷蘭，在歐洲國(guó)防工業(yè)問(wèn)題上我完全支持馬克龍。如果你把錢一直花在購(gòu)買外國(guó)產(chǎn)品上（主要是美國(guó)的）那么你要如何發(fā)展自己的工業(yè)呢？在地緣政治層面上，歐洲表現(xiàn)的就像是一個(gè)幼稚的孩童一樣，他們先是依賴俄羅斯的天然氣，再到依賴中國(guó)的制造業(yè)和美國(guó)的國(guó)防工業(yè)。
@Trent In 2021 and 2022, France sold more Rafales jets than the US with their F-35. The Rafale is now a best-seller, soon even surpassing the very successful Mirage 2000
在2021年和2022年，法國(guó)出售的陣風(fēng)戰(zhàn)機(jī)超過(guò)了美國(guó)的F35。陣風(fēng)現(xiàn)在是最暢銷的戰(zhàn)機(jī)，它的銷售成績(jī)甚至很快將超過(guò)非常成功的幻影2000
I never thought I would say this during my lifetime, but I'm with France on this one.
我從來(lái)沒(méi)有想到我這輩子會(huì)這樣說(shuō)，但我在這個(gè)問(wèn)題上支持法國(guó)
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@Tom On a Budget
Guess why 15 countries are standing against France on this one.
Because France would be the main benefitiary. There are loads of European defence projects in the works right now. The problem is that they're taking too long.
That leaves those 15 countries with 3 options:
1. Buy new top-of-the-line products from the US
2. Wait for new EU-developments
3. Buy existing outdated Tech, from within the EU.
The 15 countries want new weapons FAST. Therefore they go for 1.
France is the only one who wants Option 3. Why? Because all the producers of Option 3 sit in France. Eastern Europe are eager to be equipped with good NATO stuff. The US is the only provider for that right now.
猜猜為什么會(huì)有15個(gè)國(guó)家會(huì)在這個(gè)問(wèn)題上反對(duì)法國(guó)？
因?yàn)榉▏?guó)將會(huì)是主要的受益者。歐洲有很多國(guó)防項(xiàng)目正在進(jìn)行階段。但問(wèn)題在于他們花的時(shí)間實(shí)在是太長(zhǎng)了。
這使得這15個(gè)國(guó)家只能有以下三個(gè)選擇：
1從美國(guó)購(gòu)買新的最頂級(jí)的產(chǎn)品
2等待歐盟最新的研發(fā)成果
3從歐盟內(nèi)部購(gòu)買過(guò)時(shí)的技術(shù)
這15個(gè)國(guó)家希望盡快擁有新的武器。所以他們選擇了第一個(gè)選項(xiàng)。法國(guó)是唯一想要選擇第三個(gè)選項(xiàng)的國(guó)家。為什么？因?yàn)檫x項(xiàng)3中的所有制造商都位于法國(guó)。東歐國(guó)家迫切希望裝備上北約的優(yōu)良裝備。而現(xiàn)在能提供這些裝備的只有美國(guó)。
@TheMG26 no many european countries in europe have militaro industrial complexes.
不，很多歐洲國(guó)家都有軍工復(fù)合體
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@TheMG26 n Yes it would benefit France more than the others, but if it benefits France, it benefits the EU and indirectly benefits other EU members.
Plus the Rafale is a good deal compared to the F35, I'm not saying it's better, but when you compare price vs capability vs experience on battlefield I'd buy the Rafale.
是的，這會(huì)讓法國(guó)獲得比其他國(guó)家更多的好處，但法國(guó)受惠就等于是歐盟受惠，這也可以讓歐盟其他成員國(guó)獲得間接好處。
而且和F35相比，陣風(fēng)是一筆很不錯(cuò)的交易，我不是說(shuō)陣風(fēng)更好，但對(duì)比兩款戰(zhàn)機(jī)的價(jià)格性能和戰(zhàn)場(chǎng)經(jīng)驗(yàn)后，我會(huì)選擇陣風(fēng)
@Zayd ALAOUI how does buying outdated fighters benefit the EU?
購(gòu)買過(guò)時(shí)的戰(zhàn)機(jī)對(duì)歐盟有何好處
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@nox5555 Rafale is not outdated, actually it’s more reliable than F35 which on paper is better
陣風(fēng)沒(méi)有過(guò)時(shí)，陣風(fēng)實(shí)際上比F35更加可靠，F(xiàn)35只是紙面數(shù)據(jù)好看而已。
@Zayd ALAOUI Well luckily you are not in the positions to make the decision.
好吧，幸運(yùn)的是，處于決策位置上的人不是你
@Zayd ALAOUI , the Rafeal is a fourth generation fighter. You absolutely would be out of your mind to choose it over the F35 which is a fifth generation fighter.
Especially now Lockheed is able to use the massive US defense procurement push the cost of the F35 near the price of the Rafael.
This is one of the reasons why the Swiss bought the F35 over the Rafael.
No one knows this better than the French themselves. That’s why they are trying to find a partner to develop their own fifth generation stealth aircraft.
But France is not the US it doesn’t have the deep pockets that the US has, and it cannot finish these projects all on its own.
By the time they start doing this, the US will be rolling out their 6th generation fighters.
陣風(fēng)是四代機(jī)，如果你選擇陣風(fēng)而放棄五代機(jī)F35，那么你肯定是瘋了。尤其是現(xiàn)在洛克希德馬丁可以利用美國(guó)大規(guī)模的國(guó)防采購(gòu)將F35的成本降低至和陣風(fēng)差不多的水平。
這是為什么瑞士人會(huì)選擇購(gòu)買F35而不是陣風(fēng)的原因之一。
沒(méi)有人比法國(guó)人更加了解這一點(diǎn)。這就是為什么法國(guó)要試圖尋找合作伙伴研發(fā)屬于自己的五代機(jī)的原因。但法國(guó)不是美國(guó)，它沒(méi)有美國(guó)那么雄厚的財(cái)力，它無(wú)法獨(dú)自完成這些項(xiàng)目。等到他們開(kāi)始研發(fā)五代機(jī)的時(shí)候，美國(guó)將推出自己的六代機(jī)。
@TheMG26 n Outdated tech from the EU ? I think you're underestimating the EU military-industrial complex.
In many domains, EU military tech is on par and sometimes even ahead of the US ones. Submarines, ships, light drones, missiles, lasers, rocket/missile/space technology, IFVs, tanks,... some of those products are even more advanced than those in the United States. Moreover, all the European made weapons are NATO-compatible.
The real power of the US military industrial complex is size plus unlimited money, which give them the ability to produce faster and more.
來(lái)自歐盟過(guò)時(shí)的技術(shù)？我認(rèn)為你低估了歐盟的軍工復(fù)合體
在很多領(lǐng)域，歐盟的軍事技術(shù)和美國(guó)相當(dāng)，有時(shí)候甚至要領(lǐng)先美國(guó)。潛艇，軍艦，輕型無(wú)人機(jī)，導(dǎo)彈，激光，火箭/導(dǎo)彈/空間技術(shù)，步兵戰(zhàn)車，坦克，，，這些產(chǎn)品中有部分甚至比美國(guó)的更加先進(jìn)。而且所有歐洲制造的武器都是和北約兼容的。
美國(guó)軍工復(fù)合體真正的力量在于規(guī)模和無(wú)限的資金優(yōu)勢(shì)，這使得他們可以生產(chǎn)的更快更多。
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on economic matters Germany has the right path we don’t want to pay the rest of Europe anymore
德國(guó)在經(jīng)濟(jì)上的道路是正確的，我們不想再給歐洲其他國(guó)家交錢了
@Lynox and some still don't understand that our economies aren't isolated like in 1900.
World's and especially European economies are highly interconnected and interdependent so if your neighbors don't go well, German economy will suffer as well and the opposite is also true, strong EU economies benefit Germany.
有些人你依然不明白，現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)不是1900年了，我們的經(jīng)濟(jì)不是相互孤立的。世界經(jīng)濟(jì)，尤其是歐洲經(jīng)濟(jì)，是高度相互聯(lián)系相互依賴的，所以如果你的鄰國(guó)們發(fā)展的不好，那么德國(guó)經(jīng)濟(jì)也會(huì)受到影響，反過(guò)來(lái)同樣也是如此，一個(gè)經(jīng)濟(jì)強(qiáng)大的歐盟對(duì)德國(guó)是有好處的
I gotta side with France. Specially defence. The EU really needs to has it's own stance in the world.
我支持法國(guó)。尤其是在國(guó)防問(wèn)題上。歐盟在世界舞臺(tái)上真的需要有自己的立場(chǎng)
Well, this is concerning for European unity since France & Germany are the most influential members of the EU. I do not believe it is as great a threat to NATO unity though because France has always had disagreements with a US-led alliance.
這事關(guān)歐盟的團(tuán)結(jié)，因?yàn)榈聡?guó)和法國(guó)是歐盟最有影響力的成員國(guó)。但我認(rèn)為這對(duì)北約團(tuán)結(jié)并不是一個(gè)巨大的威脅，因?yàn)榉▏?guó)一直和以美國(guó)為首的聯(lián)盟存在分歧。
Meddling with Ukraine by the US is one of the major causes of the war with russia which is inflicting enormous pain on the euro region
俄羅斯和烏克蘭發(fā)生戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)的主要原因之一就是因?yàn)橛忻绹?guó)的干預(yù)，這場(chǎng)戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)讓歐元區(qū)承受了巨大的痛苦
France and Germany do have different opinions on a lot of things. There are always things we disagree on but that doesn't mean Germany and France stop working together.
法國(guó)和德國(guó)在很多問(wèn)題上確實(shí)存在不同意見(jiàn)。我們總是在一些事情上存在分歧，但這并不意味著德國(guó)和法國(guó)會(huì)停止合作。
when it counts, Germany and France will put their squabbels aside and work together. Those small disagreements are completely normal, and that France is annoyed with Germany is basically the usual state.
在關(guān)鍵時(shí)刻，德國(guó)和法國(guó)會(huì)把分歧放在一邊，共同努力。出現(xiàn)小小的分歧完全是正常的，法國(guó)對(duì)德國(guó)感到不滿基本上也是正常的。
Having Europe beeing independent with its military would be good thing. On the other side germany really really doesnt want a military leading role.This basically comes from WW2 and germany wanting to be pacifists now.
讓歐洲擁有獨(dú)立軍隊(duì)是一件好事。但另一方面，德國(guó)真的不想承擔(dān)軍事領(lǐng)導(dǎo)者的角色。因?yàn)槎?zhàn)的緣故，德國(guó)現(xiàn)在想要成為一個(gè)和平主義者。
It is accurate to say that they want no one to be that leading rolein the EU. So they would rather be dependant on the US.
準(zhǔn)確的說(shuō)是德國(guó)不希望任何人領(lǐng)導(dǎo)歐盟。所以他們寧愿依賴美國(guó)
Hm… Weren’t German officials proudly declaring Germany will soon become the most powerful European military just a few weeks ago?
德國(guó)官員幾周前不是還在驕傲的宣稱德國(guó)很快將成為歐洲第一軍事強(qiáng)國(guó)嗎？
If Germany doesn't want military leading role they should send all their tanks to France.
如果德國(guó)不想在軍事上發(fā)揮領(lǐng)導(dǎo)作用，那么就應(yīng)該把所有的坦克送給法國(guó)
It's kinda funny that I am German and mostly agree with the French energy and defence plans.
有趣的是，作為一個(gè)德國(guó)人，我基本同意法國(guó)的能源和國(guó)防計(jì)劃。
On the Defence front I entirely agree with France
在國(guó)防問(wèn)題上，我完全支持法國(guó)的觀點(diǎn)
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Im german and I didnt even know that France was angry at us.
我是德國(guó)人，我甚至都不知道法國(guó)在生我們的氣
Seriously, we are furious for years about your stupid politics.
Bad choices after bad choices.
說(shuō)真的，多年來(lái)，你們愚蠢的政治讓我們感到很生氣
你們做出了一個(gè)有一個(gè)糟糕的決定
I think most of eu’s countries are angry against Germany not only France but the majority of eu countries
我認(rèn)為對(duì)德國(guó)感到惱火的不僅僅是法國(guó)，歐盟大部分國(guó)家對(duì)德國(guó)都很不滿
I suspect that some weapon projects between France and Germany will be canceled, because there isn’t any or slow progress.
Especially FCAS could be cancelled, since Dassault refuses to cooperate with Airbus and does not share patents and technologies. Possibly Germany will buy either American machines or join the British-Italian Project Tempest.
我認(rèn)為法國(guó)和德國(guó)之間的一些武器項(xiàng)目將會(huì)被取消，因?yàn)轫?xiàng)目進(jìn)展緩慢甚至沒(méi)有進(jìn)展。尤其是未來(lái)空戰(zhàn)系統(tǒng)有可能會(huì)被取消，因?yàn)檫_(dá)索拒絕和空客合作，而且他們也不愿意共享專利和技術(shù)。德國(guó)有可能會(huì)購(gòu)買美國(guó)的武器，或者加入英國(guó)和意大利的暴風(fēng)雨項(xiàng)目。（未來(lái)空戰(zhàn)系統(tǒng)是德法和西班牙為六代機(jī)研發(fā)的空戰(zhàn)系統(tǒng)）