軍壇討論:印度的布拉莫斯導彈是目前世界上最致命的現(xiàn)役導彈?
BrahMos missile?譯文簡介
“印度的布拉莫斯導彈是目前世界上最致命的現(xiàn)役導彈”
正文翻譯
So one of my Indian friends mentioned today that India's BrahMos missile is the world's deadliest missile in service now: not only it could not be stopped by any air defense system in service due to its supersonic speed but it has no similar comparable counterparts in countries like USA and China's inventory.
所以我的一個印度朋友今天提到,印度的布拉莫斯導彈是目前世界上最致命的現(xiàn)役導彈:由于其超音速,它不僅無法被任何現(xiàn)役防空系統(tǒng)阻止,而且在美國和中國等國家的庫存中也沒有類似的同類導彈。
So, my question what is BrahMos missile, which category it falls to and if my friend's statement is true what makes it so unique that even USA can't make it? I did some quick searches on my phone but almost all the results are from India media, not saying they are not credible, just want to hear some third-party comments on it.
所以,我的問題是:布拉莫斯導彈是什么?它屬于哪一類?如果我朋友的說法是真的,是什么使得它如此獨特,連美國都造不出來? 我用手機快速搜索了一下,但幾乎所有的結果都來自印度媒體,我不是說它們不可信,只是想聽聽第三方的評論。
所以,我的問題是:布拉莫斯導彈是什么?它屬于哪一類?如果我朋友的說法是真的,是什么使得它如此獨特,連美國都造不出來? 我用手機快速搜索了一下,但幾乎所有的結果都來自印度媒體,我不是說它們不可信,只是想聽聽第三方的評論。
評論翻譯
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Indians are proud of Brahmos because it’s a domestic supersonic (bordering hypersonic) missile that outperforms everything that Pakistan has. Apparently due to its domestic nature it’s a pride thing that proves that India has the expertise to build such Ashms.
印度人對布拉莫斯感到自豪,因為它是一種國產超音速導彈(臨近超高音速導彈),性能超過巴基斯坦所有的導彈。顯然,由于其國產性質,這是一件驕傲的事情,證明印度有建造這種反艦導彈的專業(yè)知識。
缺點包括:體積龐大(改裝后的側衛(wèi)只能攜帶1枚),不可靠且不準確。
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Huh unreliable and inaccurate? There are literal videos of brahmos hitting the target with accuracy
哈?不可靠且不準確?有視頻顯示布拉莫斯導彈準確擊中了目標。
There are also videos showing JF-17s destroying a roughly Rafael shaped target
也有視頻顯示JF-17摧毀了一個大約是陣風形狀的目標。
Not really if anything Jeffs were struggling to make a video for their bvr launch
并沒有,如果有什么不同的話,那就是JF的吹鼓手們曾努力為他們的超視距導彈制作視頻。
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不管怎樣,為什么你說它不準確,我希望你除了“俄羅斯技術差勁”還有更好的證據。
Generally, hypersonic missiles are pretty inaccurate due to the physics of air as it approaches hypersonic speeds. So far no country has reliably solved that problem. I admit I’m not familiar with how the Brahmos missile approached its target but any missile that claims to be hypersonic (including Kinzhal and YJ-21) are generally assumed to be inaccurate.
一般來說,由于空氣的物理特性,高超音速導彈在接近高超音速時是相當不準確的。到目前為止,還沒有一個國家可靠地解決了這個問題。我承認我不熟悉布拉莫斯導彈在接近目標的時候表現(xiàn)如何,但任何聲稱是高超音速的導彈(包括匕首和鷹擊-21)通常都被認為是不準確的。
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Fair enough, as far as I know Brahmos max speed is Mach 3, calling it hypersonic is a stretch and that too only at its terminal phase
很公平,據我所知,布拉莫斯的最大速度是3馬赫,稱其為高超音速有點過了,而這也只是在其末端階段。
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Generally, hypersonic missiles are pretty inaccurate due to the physics of air as it approaches hypersonic speeds
I've seen variations of this stated a lot as accepted fact, but are there any good technical sources that explain the science behind it?
我看到過很多這種說法的衍生版,作為公認的事實,但有沒有好的技術來源來解釋它背后的科學?
the simplified version (and possibly wrong) is that at hypersonic speeds air starts behaving like a liquid. As the missile descends towards the target the air also becomes thicker and hotter making maneuvering extremely hard.
簡化的版本(可能是錯誤的)是,在高超音速下,空氣開始表現(xiàn)得像液體。當導彈向目標下降時,空氣也變得更密、更熱,使機動變得極其困難。
此外,當暴露于高超音速的空氣摩擦中,傳感器的功能也不那么好。
If you give me a couple of hours worth of attempts, I can give you a literal video of me throwing a perfect basket from all the way across the basketball court.
如果你讓我試幾個小時,我可以給你一段真實的視頻,證明我可以在籃球場的另一邊投出一個完美的投籃。
Millions of dollars wasted over some video for who exactly? These missile aint cheap and nobody is putting weapons on their ships they cant trust
將數(shù)百萬美元浪費在一段視頻上,到底是為了誰? 這些導彈不便宜,沒有人把不信任的武器放在他們的艦艇上。
除此之外,它也被出口了,你說它不準,你有什么證據,至少我有實打實的視頻證明它很準。
Brahmos is a joint venture between India-Russia, based on the P-800 Onyx. Now, India can mostly domestically produce Brahmos so that is something to be proud of, but calling it domestic is still inaccurate
布拉莫斯是印俄合作的裝備,以P-800紅寶石導彈為基礎?,F(xiàn)在,印度基本上可以在國內生產布拉莫斯導彈,這是值得驕傲的事情,但稱之為國產仍然是不準確的。
巴基斯坦的054AP型護衛(wèi)艦上有鷹擊-12,或多或少可以與布拉莫斯相媲美。
Indian nationalism being what it is these are very small inconveniences that can be easily ignored
印度民族主義就是這樣,這些都是很小的不便之處,很容易被無視。
It's not really domestic as it's based on a Russian missile that has been around for decades. It can also be launched by ground TELs, ships and submarines.
它并不是真正的國產導彈,因為它是基于一種已經存在了幾十年的俄羅斯導彈。它也可以由陸基發(fā)射車、艦艇和潛艇發(fā)射。
幾乎可以肯定,它也可以被90年代早期的愛國者攔截。因為它的原體“10馬赫”的金扎爾導彈可以被攔截。巴基斯坦可能沒有愛國者,但它最近獲得了中國的紅旗-9。也許能攔截它們。主要取決于范圍,海拔和地形。
Lol at this moment, Brahmos is still over 50% Russian.
哈哈,此時此刻,布拉莫斯的俄羅斯血統(tǒng)依然超過50%。
Brahmos isnt some wanderwuffen weapon, its just different approach to what west AShM prefer ( Anti Ship Missile )
布拉莫斯不是什么神奇武器,只是它的技術路線與西方反艦導彈更喜歡的方式不同。
西方的方法是低而慢地飛行,避免被發(fā)現(xiàn),以避開艦艇的自衛(wèi)套件,而蘇聯(lián)的方法是快速飛行,以躲避艦艇的自衛(wèi)套件。
兩者都有各自的優(yōu)點和缺點。
https://youtu.be/ZhY-QLPt0f0?feature=shared
欲了解更多信息,請觀看這部紀錄片。
Wow, more than 2 hrs, that seems to be a well researched documentary. Thanks for the comments and recommendation, will check it out.
哇,2個多小時,這似乎是一部研究得很好的紀錄片。謝謝你的評論和推薦,我會去看看的。
China have anti ship ballistic missiles that fly faster and further.
中國的反艦彈道導彈飛得更快更遠。
Your friend is DEAD wrong.
你朋友大錯特錯。
“布拉莫斯導彈是目前世界上最致命的現(xiàn)役導彈”,因為上面只說了“導彈”,而不是“巡航導彈”,我可以想到20種不同的系統(tǒng),可以被認為是更“致命”。從SRBM(短程彈道導彈)-ICBM(洲際彈道導彈)。
“任何防空系統(tǒng)都無法阻止它”——他大錯特錯。SM-2、SM-6和ESSM(都是宙斯盾系統(tǒng)的組成部分)時常攔截GQM 163A郊狼導彈。這是一種高度機動的4馬赫超音速巡航靶彈。布拉莫斯絕對可以被攔截,當然它比魚叉更難攔截,但它遠不能對防空系統(tǒng)免疫。
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“在美國和中國等國家的庫存中沒有類似的可與之比擬的產品?!泵绹P注低可觀測的ASHM和ALCM,如JASSM和LRASM。
另一方面,中國確實擁有與布拉莫斯相媲美的導彈(鷹擊-12、CJ/東風-100等)。
thanks for the detailed response. these are many acronyms for me to search for.
感謝您的詳細回復。有很多首字母縮略詞,我需要搜索一下才懂。
Here's what your response should be:
你應該這樣回答:
How many people has it killed so far?
“最致命的導彈?
到目前為止,它已經殺死了多少人?”
Layer Harpoons are pretty stealthy and usually fly at wave top level. Meaning that they're undectable from sea level up until about 11NM from the target. Giving the ship a little over a minute to prepare.
魚叉是非常隱蔽的,通常在波浪頂部飛行。這意味著在距離目標11海里之前,它們在海平面上是探測不到的。艦艇只剩下一分鐘多一點的準備時間。
BrahMos is basically p-800 oinks but faster. As an anti-ship sea skimmer its a viable product (provided its targeting and electronics works). As a land target its a waste to pay for both a booster and ramjet for 300kg over 500km, just use normal solid rocket missiles instead.
布拉莫斯導彈基本上是p-800,但速度更快。作為一種反艦掠海導彈,它是一種可行的產品(前提是它的瞄準和電子系統(tǒng)管用)。至于陸地目標,采用這種300公斤的助推器、射程超過500公里的沖壓發(fā)動機的導彈是一種浪費,使用普通的固體火箭導彈就可以了。
大多數(shù)國家不關注導彈經過某一點的速度,而是關注電子設備和瞄準,以確保它們擊中應該擊中的目標,特別是如果對方是移動目標。
就沖壓發(fā)動機技術而言,未來的發(fā)展方向似乎是集成助推器/噴氣系統(tǒng)。中國有鷹擊-12,歐洲有流星。在這方面,布拉莫斯是落后的。
It's compared to YJ-12(CM-302) or the 3M80(P-270). But Russia and China both moved on to hypersonic missiles now (such as YJ-21). To compare:
它可以與鷹擊-12(CM-302)或3M80(P-270)相比擬。但是俄羅斯和中國現(xiàn)在都轉向了高超音速導彈(比如鷹擊-21)。為了比較:
鷹擊-12,射程400公里,巡航速度2馬赫,終端速度4馬赫;
鷹擊-21,射程1000公里,巡航速度6馬赫,末速10馬赫。
射程根據版本不同可能迥異。
China has hypersonics (DF-17), but I think YJ-21 is just a ballistic missile. It travels at hypersonic speeds, but most long-ranged ballistic missiles also do that. The gimmick is that it can be fired from a ship and that it has terminal sensors.
中國有高超音速導彈(東風-17),但我認為鷹擊-21只是一種彈道導彈。它以高超音速飛行,但大多數(shù)遠程彈道導彈也能做到這一點。它的噱頭是它可以從船上發(fā)射,并且有終端傳感器。
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It is anti-ship, so in the final stage the missile head must have much better lateral movement capability than a traditional ballistic missile. The same capability can be used to change its track unpredictably(corkscrew turn etc). This is the newer gen anti-ship missiles Russia/China were working toward.
它是反艦的,所以在最后階段,相比傳統(tǒng)的彈道導彈,導彈頭必須有更好的橫向移動能力。同樣的能力可以用來改變其軌道,使其不可預測(螺旋轉彎等)。這是俄羅斯和中國正在研發(fā)的新一代反艦導彈。
在鷹擊-12和鷹擊-18之后,掠海型似乎已經到了一個死胡同。
Brah, mostly I think it's just hyperbole.
兄弟,我覺得你多半是在夸大其詞。
OP, your first mistake was listening to an Indian about something that sounds good about India. Indians are by and large, super patriotic. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes them very susceptible to both hyperbole and propaganda.
OP,你的第一個錯誤是聽了一個印度人說了關于印度的一些聽起來不錯的東西??偟膩碚f,印度人是超級愛國的。這未必是件壞事,但這讓他們很容易受到夸張和宣傳的影響。
布拉莫斯是一種有趣的武器,尤其是對印度人來說(與俄羅斯合作),但它并不是突破性的。
could not be stopped by any air defense system in service due to its supersonic speed
“由于它的超音速,任何現(xiàn)役防空系統(tǒng)都不能阻擋它?!?/b>
首先,它是超音速,而不是高超音速。有一款布拉莫斯II,被提升到7-8馬赫(高超音速區(qū)),但正常版本的最大馬赫數(shù)是3馬赫,而且很確定它在低空水平飛行時不會達到3馬赫。報告的3馬赫是從高空釋放時的俯沖速度。對于超音速的東西,許多防空系統(tǒng)都有很好的攔截成功率,包括最新的S300/400和幾乎所有的中型或戰(zhàn)區(qū)級西方系統(tǒng)。戰(zhàn)斗機擁有相同的速度,在許多情況下?lián)碛懈蟮臋C動性,但它們很容易受到所有這些系統(tǒng)的攻擊。
對于其有效載荷和航程來說,它也非常非常重。一架蘇-30只能攜帶一枚,而且需要對機腹進行改裝。
You gotta take a sackful of salt when listening to Indians boast about themselves. Their movies should be a clear indicator of this.
當你聽印度人吹噓自己的時候,你得帶著懷疑。他們的電影應該是一個明確的指標。
ICBMs have been around for decades. They are hypersonic, unstoppable, and deadly. And stealthy when launched from a submarine.
洲際彈道導彈已經存在了幾十年。它們是高超音速的,不可阻擋的,致命的。而且從潛艇上發(fā)射時是隱身的。
高超音速空射導彈與現(xiàn)有洲際彈道導彈相比沒有戰(zhàn)略優(yōu)勢。只要你發(fā)射一次布拉莫斯導彈,30分鐘后你的10個大城市就會被夷為平地。
Bear in mind American military strategy contrary to popular chatter is Not centered on Defense, but rather Revenge The administrators and decision makers, have hardware and well strategized retaliation worked out, they really don't care about the masses of the general population.
記住,美國的軍事戰(zhàn)略不是以防御為中心,而是以報復為中心。管理者和決策者有硬件和精心策劃的報復,他們真的不關心普通民眾。
所以在這種情況下,除非印度有1萬枚完美運轉、全天候準備同時發(fā)射的導彈,并且對美國的整個軍事行動了如指掌,否則它就不是威脅,或者更確切地說,它只是一個威脅,僅此而已。
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