為什么菲律賓不像韓國、日本、越南那樣屬于東亞文化圈？
Why Philippine is not part of East Asian Cultural Sphere like Korean,Japan and Vietnam
譯文簡介
雖然東南亞國家中有大量的東亞后裔，但其中大多數(shù)人的祖先仍是南島民族。
正文翻譯
Why Philippine is not part of East Asian Cultural Sphere like Korean,Japan and Vietnam
為什么菲律賓不像韓國、日本、越南那樣屬于東亞文化圈
is a geographic shield or other factor on why china dont totally influence philippine unlike korea japan and vietnam?
是地理屏障還是其他因素導(dǎo)致中國不像對韓國、日本和越南那樣完全影響過菲律賓？
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
是地理屏障還是其他因素導(dǎo)致中國不像對韓國、日本和越南那樣完全影響過菲律賓？
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
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While the countries of Southeast Asia contain a significant number of people of East Asian descent, majority of these still comprise of people of Austronesian ancestry. There's just shared more shared culture, traditions and values that the Philippines has with Malaysia, Indonesia, and Brunei, that's why.
雖然東南亞國家中有大量的東亞后裔，但其中大多數(shù)人的祖先仍是南島民族。這就是菲律賓與馬來西亞、印度尼西亞和文萊擁有更多共同文化、傳統(tǒng)和價(jià)值觀的原因。
People from Mainland Southeast Asia are Austroasiatics though
不過自東南亞大陸而來的人是南亞語族
Yeah, and the countries listed (Malaysia, Indonesia, and Brunei) are Maritime Southeast Asia.
是的，所列國家（馬來西亞、印度尼西亞和文萊）都屬于東南亞海洋國家。
Malaysia is half and half. The peninsular part is technically Mainland Southeast Asia.
馬來西亞一半一半。嚴(yán)格來說，半島部分屬于東南亞大陸。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Kinh (Viet) and Khmer people are Austroasiatic. But ethnic groups like Cham and E De are also Austronesians that are native to Vietnam.
京族（越南人）和高棉人屬于南亞語族。但占族和鄂德族等少數(shù)民族卻是越南本土的南島語族。
The only major Austroasiatic languages in Indochina are Vietnamese and Khmer. All in all it is a hodgepodge of various language families. Burmese is Ti...o-Burman, a distant cousin of Chinese. Thai and Lao belong to the Tai-Kradai family. If you include the Malay peninsula, then Bahasa Melayu as the major representative of Austronesian languages.
印度支那（中南半島）唯一主要的南亞語系是越南語和高棉語?？傊@是一個由不同語系組成的大雜燴。緬甸語是藏緬語，是漢語的遠(yuǎn)親。泰語和老撾語屬于臺-卡岱語系。如果把馬來半島包括在內(nèi)，那么馬來語就是這里南島語系的主要代表。
And if we actually think about it. Most of the Chinese diaspora in the Southeast or at least the Philippines, are of Fujian descent. If we actually trace back Fujianese DNA during the Neolithic or even just at the Qin or Han Dynasty. We will see that will have a large amount of Austronesian DNA as well. This is because that is the source of the pre austronesian people, the Liangdao man. 23&me won’t show this because 23&me or ancestry and all other DNA sites don’t go that far. So if we think about it, the Chinese migration into the Philippines is a continuation of Austronesian DNA into the the archipelago. Would make sense why many Filipinos with Filipino and Chinese ancestry, will still look very southeast Asian.
如果我們仔細(xì)想想，散居在東南亞或至少是菲律賓的大多數(shù)華人都是福建人后裔。如果我們實(shí)際上追溯到新石器時(shí)代甚至秦漢時(shí)期的福建人DNA。如果我們追溯福建人在新石器時(shí)代，甚至是秦漢時(shí)期的 DNA。我們會發(fā)現(xiàn)其中也有大量的南島民族 DNA。這是因?yàn)槟抢锸乔澳蠉u人--亮島人--的源頭。 23&me（基因檢測）不會顯示這一點(diǎn)，因?yàn)?3&me或祖先以及所有其他DNA網(wǎng)站都不會太過深入。因此，如果我們仔細(xì)想想，中國人移民到菲律賓是南島人的 DNA 在群島上的延續(xù)。這也就解釋了為什么許多擁有菲律賓和中國血統(tǒng)的菲律賓人看起來仍然非常像東南亞人。
For one there is a big sea in between us that is greater compared to the distances from mainland to Taiwan/Kyushu. The most ‘sinicized’ SEA would be vietnam since they have a land border with them. We also didn’t experience greater sinicization as seen in your given examples due to lack of actual central control, with our Chinese influence mainly stemming from traders and migrants. Even then, the only SEA country that experienced an actual invasion by the ‘Chinese’ are the Yuan when they invaded Java. Even in that case, it was still helping a local power that them outright putting it under their direct control.
首先，與大陸到臺灣/九州的距離相比，我們之間隔著一大片海。最“中國化”的東南亞地區(qū)是越南，因?yàn)樗麄兣c越南有陸地邊界。由于缺乏實(shí)際的中央控制，我們也沒有像你所舉的例子那樣經(jīng)歷更大規(guī)模的漢化，我們的中國影響主要來自商人和移民。即便如此，唯一經(jīng)歷過“中國人”實(shí)際入侵的東南亞國家是元朝入侵爪哇。即使在那種情況下，他們也只是在扶植一個地方勢力，而不是直接將其置于自己的控制之下。
People should understand that overwhelming "central control" only existed when the concept of the "nation-states" got promoted and adopted in the 19th and 20th centuries.
人們應(yīng)該明白，壓倒性的“中央控制”只是在 19 世紀(jì)和 20 世紀(jì)“民族國家”的概念得到推廣和采納時(shí)才出現(xiàn)的。
Because the Chinese only came here to trade and conduct business. Philippines was more Indianized since Hindu-Buddhist influence became deep rooted in our cultures due to continuous interactions with Srivijaya and Majapahit (and maybe even from Indians themselves)
And also, Spain did cut us off from the rest of Asia except China after colonizing us
因?yàn)橹袊藖磉@里只是為了貿(mào)易和做生意。由于與三佛齊和滿者伯夷（甚至可能來自印度人本身）的持續(xù)互動，菲律賓的印度化程度更高，印度教和佛教的影響在我們的文化中根深蒂固。
此外，西班牙在殖民我們之后，確實(shí)切斷了我們與除中國之外的亞洲其他地區(qū)的聯(lián)系。
Well the other Asian cultures werent exactly influential during the same time as Spanish colonisation:
Korea was a sick man of Asia, after being devastated by the 2 Japanese invasions and basically a fief of Qing China
Japan was in isolation under the Tokugawa policy of Sakoku
Indonesia was under the Portugese and the Dutch
Malaysia was under the British
If anything, China was relatively “stable” after the fall of the Ming.
好吧，在西班牙殖民統(tǒng)治的同一時(shí)期，其他亞洲文化并沒有什么影響力：
朝鮮是亞洲的病夫，在經(jīng)歷了兩次日本入侵的蹂躪之后，基本上成了清朝中國的藩屬國。
日本在德川幕府政策下處于鎖國狀態(tài)
印度尼西亞由葡萄牙人和荷蘭人統(tǒng)治
馬來西亞由英國統(tǒng)治
硬要說一條的話，那就是明朝滅亡后中國相對“穩(wěn)定”。
I used to consider Korea as "the Poland of Asia"
我曾經(jīng)認(rèn)為韓國是“亞洲的波蘭”
more like ukraine, why? because the cossack are the army of russia so is korean the army of japan.
更像烏克蘭，為什么？因?yàn)楦缢_克是俄羅斯軍隊(duì)的前驅(qū)，而韓國人是日本軍隊(duì)的前驅(qū)。
have never heard that before. If there is any truth in that, it is probably because Korea was colonized for 30 years by Japan.
我以前從未聽說過這種說法。如果這句話屬實(shí)，那可能是因?yàn)轫n國被日本殖民了 30 年。
It may have to be more about post-WW2 era. Which admittedly I'm not too well read on, but most of the geopolitical influences we know today either came about during/after WW1 (the divisions of the Middle-east into zones of control by the French and British for example) or post WW2 (the cold war and its aftermaths which influenced much of world geopolitics today; i.e Velvet Revolution, and breakaway of other com...st states)
The Fall of the USSR is a very interesting read since it wasn't a single clean end.
可能更多的是關(guān)于二戰(zhàn)后。誠然，我對地緣政治不太了解，但我們今天所知的大多數(shù)地緣政治影響要么是在一戰(zhàn)期間/之后產(chǎn)生的（例如，法國和英國將中東劃分為不同的控制區(qū)），要么是在二戰(zhàn)之后產(chǎn)生的（冷戰(zhàn)及其后果影響了當(dāng)今世界的許多地緣政治，例如天鵝絨革命和其他共產(chǎn)主義國家的分裂）。
《蘇聯(lián)的垮臺》是一本非常有趣的讀物，因?yàn)樗慕Y(jié)局耐人尋味。
Well if you want to talk about the post WWII era then it seems pretty obvious why were not part of the East Asian cultural sphere.
Were in SEA, historically Vietnam (the only SEA nation in OP’s list) has been influenced by China for so long because theyre right next to each other and was even part of China at multiple points.
We’re the most Westernised Asian nation and we’re closest to the USA in terms of influence
China turned com...st by 1949 and was isolationist for most of the Cold War (mainly because of the SinoSoviet splot)
好吧，如果你想談?wù)摱?zhàn)后時(shí)代，那么為什么不屬于東亞文化圈的原因似乎很明顯。
1. 越南（OP 列表中唯一的東南亞國家）位于東南亞，歷史上長期受到中國的影響，因?yàn)樗鼈兙o鄰中國，甚至在多個時(shí)期曾是中國的一部分。
2. 我們是最西方化的亞洲國家，受美國的影響最大。
3. 中國在 1949 年轉(zhuǎn)變?yōu)楣伯a(chǎn)主義國家，并在冷戰(zhàn)的大部分時(shí)間里持孤立主義態(tài)度（主要原因是中蘇交惡）
If anything, Spanish trade with China is the reason why a third of Filipinos have partial Chinese ancestry, like how Britain made Singapore a majority-Chinese city.
如果說有什么不同的話，那就是西班牙與中國的貿(mào)易是三分之一菲律賓人有部分華人血統(tǒng)的原因，就像英國使新加坡成為華人占多數(shù)的城市一樣。
Before the massacre and expulsion of the Chinese, they made up around 40% of Manila's population by the late 1600s
在TS和驅(qū)逐華人之前，到 1600 年代末，華人已占馬尼拉人口的 40% 左右
Isolation from asia main land + long colonial period + continuous influence from west
與亞洲大陸隔絕+長時(shí)間被殖民+西方持續(xù)影響
The pre-colonial period is more Indianized.
前殖民時(shí)期更加印度化。
Because we looked towards the Malays, Chams and Javanese for cultural development. Fellow Austronesian speakers and sharing more or less the same climate and biome. Notice how the Vietnamese (the northern part before their southward expansion), Koreans and Japanese experience the same four seasons with mainland China. Climate similarities plus being agricultural societies made translation of Chinese cultural mores easier and sensible as opposed to the Ti...ans or Mongols who were politically closer and more familiar.
The rest of Southeast Asia have the same humid and hot jungle temperature with South and East India. Burmese people are genetically and linguistically close to China but their culture always looked toward India, especially via their Mon and Pyu neighbors. Tai tribes after migrating south adopted Indian civilization via Khmer Empire. And why would they expand southward in the first place? Isn't that hesitance on their part to be "Sinicized"? The Tai speakers left behind underwent Sinification and became the Zhuang minority. Nevertheless the Tai tribes along the borders between China, Myanmar and Laos share a lot more similarities with their Indianized brothers to the south.
The Philippine archipelago was closer to Borneo than to the Pearl River Delta. Before the European Age of Discovery, Taiwan was a mysterious but pirate infested island virtually ignored by Asians. So that crosses out cultural interactions between the Philippines and closest northern neighbor (although it was the Urheimat of all Austronesian speakers). The Chinese were the ones going down to the islands and trade than the other way around. Even then relationship between pre-colonial "Filipinos" and the Chinese were purely economic and political. China was never enthusiastic in exporting its culture to its neighbors. Its only foreign policy concerns were maintaining its geopolitical "center-of-the-world" stance and continuing economic privileges.
On the other hand, Indians were usually invited by Southeast Asian elites to share their ideas and sophistication. The Cambodians for example were said to be the descendants of an Indian prince and a Naga (half woman half snake) princess. The Javanese were some of the most heavily Indianized cultures in the Southeast Asia. Together with the Malays (via the Sri Vijaya Empire) and the Chams (original people of Central Vietnam), they were the "reference cultures" for pre-Hispanic Filipinos. Indeed the term "Bisaya" or "Visayas" were probably attempts of Central Filipinos to associate themselves with the Sri Vijaya Empire. Before converting to Islam, the Sulu Archipelago was part of the Javanese-dominated Majapahit Empire.
But not everyone in the Philippines adopted Indian influences. There are shades of acculturation throughout the islands, just like everywhere else in Southeast Asia. The Igorots could care less as well as the Ivatans and more eastern or interior tribes. In my estimation, the most "Indianized" ethnicities at the coming of Magellan were the Tagalogs, Kapampangans, Maranaos, Maguindanaos, Tausugs, Yakans, Sama-Bajaus, Butuanons, Bicolanos and Mangyans. The rest were more or less "Austronesian".
Also if you want to understand what would be us without the Spanish influences, back to the crossroads of destiny (dramatic, I know), the Bangsamoro cultures hold key. Note that Islam in Southeast Asian context was introduced by Indian and Chinese traders, rarely Arabs even though they came to the islands as well. Despite being Muslim, the predominant flavor in Mindanao cultures is Indianization with added touches of Malay and Javanese influences.
There were also rumors that the Yakans were descendants of Cham traders that settled in Sulu. The Tausugs eventually got jealous and expelled them because they were more favored by Chinese over the locals. I am sorry if I don't have a source for this but someone can verify it. It might be a rumor but still it's not a far fetched scenario. We were and are still neighbors after all.
The Philippines, except for the last 400 years, belonged to the Maritime Southeast Asian world where Indian influence was the elite cultural component with minor Chinese touches above a more native base.
因?yàn)槲覀兿蝰R來人、占族人和爪哇人尋求文化發(fā)展。他們都是講南島語的同胞，有著大致相同的氣候和生物群落。請注意，越南人（向南擴(kuò)張前的北部地區(qū)）、朝鮮人和日本人與中國大陸一樣，都是有四季的。氣候相似加上都是農(nóng)業(yè)社會，與政治上更接近、更熟悉的西藏人或蒙古人相比，翻譯中國文化習(xí)俗更容易、更適用。
東南亞其他地區(qū)與南印度和東印度有著相同的濕熱叢林氣候。緬甸人在基因和語言上與中國很接近，但他們的文化卻一直向印度看齊，特別是通過他們的孟族和驃族鄰居。泰族部落南遷后通過高棉帝國接受了印度文明。他們?yōu)槭裁匆蚰蠑U(kuò)張呢？這難道不是他們對“漢化”的猶豫嗎？留下的說傣語的人經(jīng)歷了漢化，成為少數(shù)民族壯族。盡管如此，中國、緬甸和老撾邊境的傣族部落與南方的印度化兄弟之間還是有著更多的相似之處。
相比于珠江三角洲，菲律賓群島更接近婆羅洲。在歐洲大發(fā)現(xiàn)時(shí)代之前，臺灣是一個神秘且海盜出沒的島嶼，幾乎被亞洲人所忽視。因此，這就排除了菲律賓與最接近的北方鄰居之間的文化互動（盡管它是所有講南島語的人的起源）。中國人前往這些島嶼進(jìn)行貿(mào)易，而不是相反。即便如此，殖民前的“菲律賓人”與中國人之間的關(guān)系也純粹是經(jīng)濟(jì)和政治關(guān)系。中國從不熱衷于向鄰國輸出自己的文化。它唯一關(guān)心的外交政策是維持其“世界中心”的地緣政治地位和繼續(xù)享有經(jīng)濟(jì)特權(quán)。
另一方面，東南亞精英通常會邀請印度人來分享他們的思想和智慧。例如，柬埔寨人據(jù)說是印度王子和納迦公主（半女半蛇）的后裔。爪哇文化是東南亞印度化程度最高的文化之一。他們與馬來人（通過三佛齊帝國）和占人（越南中部的原住民）一起，是西班牙殖民前菲律賓人的“參考文化”。事實(shí)上，“宿霧語”可能是菲律賓中部人試圖將自己與三佛齊帝國聯(lián)系起來的嘗試。在皈依伊斯蘭教之前，蘇祿群島是爪哇人統(tǒng)治的滿者伯夷帝國的一部分。
但并非菲律賓所有人都接受了印度的影響。就像東南亞的其他地方一樣，菲律賓群島上也有不同程度的文化融合。伊哥洛特人和伊瓦坦人以及更多的東部或內(nèi)陸部落都不在意印度文化。據(jù)我估計(jì)，麥哲倫到來時(shí)“印度化”程度最高的民族是他加祿人、卡潘邦人、馬拉諾人、馬金達(dá)諾斯人、陶蘇格斯人、雅坎人、薩馬-巴哈烏斯人、布圖阿農(nóng)人、比科拉諾人和曼吉亞人。其余的人或多或少都只是“南島人”。
此外，如果你想了解如果沒有西班牙的影響，我們會是什么樣子，回到命運(yùn)的十字路口（我知道這很戲劇化），邦薩摩洛文化是關(guān)鍵。請注意，東南亞地區(qū)的伊斯蘭教是由印度和中國商人傳入的，很少是阿拉伯人，盡管他們也來到了這些島嶼。盡管成為了穆斯林，但棉蘭老島文化的主要特征是印度化，并受到馬來和爪哇的影響。
還有傳言說，雅坎人是在蘇祿定居的占族商人的后裔。由于他們比當(dāng)?shù)厝烁苤袊说那嗖A，陶蘇格斯人嫉妒并最終驅(qū)逐了他們。很抱歉我沒有這方面的資料或者有人可以證實(shí)這一點(diǎn)。這可能只是謠傳，但并不牽強(qiáng)。畢竟，我們過去和現(xiàn)在都是鄰居。
除了過去 400 年之外，菲律賓都屬于東南亞海洋世界，印度的影響是精英文化的組成部分，在更本土的基礎(chǔ)之上還帶有少量的中國元素。
Vietnam is SEA
越南是東南亞
I've read that while Vietnam is in SEA (and also a member of ASEAN), it is culturally part of the Sinosphere since it was ruled by China for over 1,000 years from 111 BC to 939 AD.
我讀到，雖然越南位于東南亞（也是東盟成員），但它在文化上是漢文化圈的一部分，因?yàn)樗鼜墓?111 年到公元 939 年被中國統(tǒng)治了 1000 多年。
Vietnam started as a break away province of China during the Han Dynasty, eventually assimilating indigenous populations and forming the ethnogenesis of modern day Vietnamese people or Nguoi Kinh.
Even so Vietnamese society is fundamentally Southeast Asian that is heavily influenced by Chinese civilization.
越南從漢朝時(shí)期開始就是中國的一個省份，最終分離并同化了土著居民，形成了現(xiàn)代越南人或者說京族的民族起源。
盡管如此，越南社會從根本上說是深受中華文明影響的東南亞社會。
We're Maritime Southeast Asia like Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Vietnam and other Southeast Asian countries that share a border with China have a more "East Asian" side to their culture, especially Vietnam since they were a tributary state to China way back then.
我們是和印度尼西亞、馬來西亞等東南亞一樣的海洋國家。越南和其他與中國接壤的東南亞國家的文化更具有“東亞”色彩，尤其是越南，因?yàn)樗麄儺?dāng)年是中國的一個朝貢國。
Too far. Too different looking.
太遠(yuǎn)。長得太不一樣了
Geographically separated from mainland Asia and centuries of Western colonization under Spain and the U.S..
地理上與亞洲大陸相隔，并經(jīng)歷了西班牙和美國幾個世紀(jì)的西方殖民統(tǒng)治。
Because we are part of the ASEAN sphere along with Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, and Vietnam too actually
因?yàn)槲覀儗?shí)際上與印度尼西亞、馬來西亞、新加坡、文萊、泰國、老撾、柬埔寨、緬甸和越南一樣都是東盟圈的一部分
They are asking why
人家在問為什么
Because the PH is located in Southeast Asia, not East Asia proper???
The culture is more Malay than Sinified
因?yàn)榉坡少e位于東南亞，而不是東亞？？？
這里的文化更多是馬來文化而不是漢化文化
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Vietnam, Singapre, and to an extent Taiwan are located in South East Asia proper and are highly sinicised. Why isn't that the case for the Philippines?
越南、新加坡以及一定程度上的臺灣都位于東南亞本土，并且高度中國化。為什么菲律賓不是這樣呢？
Vietnam had long periods of being a Chinese province while its distance from the Chinese imperial capitals made it easy for locals to form their own distinct cultural identity while continually adopting Chinese cultural influences.
Singapore started as a Malay fishing village before the Ming Dynasty provided poor fisherfolk and farmers from Southern Chinese coastal villages to leave the mainland for economic prosperity. The Melaka Strait was a goldmine for them as it provided ample opportunities to trade with locals, Indians, Arabs, Persians and other Southeast Asians. When the Europeans colonized the region, more and more Southern Chinese went down to Singapore, Penang, Phuket and other strategic island bases because they had no future in China.
Taiwan has more or less the same story as the Straits Settlements (Singapore and others) but different motivation. The late Ming and later Qing imperial government encouraged the same poor peasants from Southern China to settle in the island to:
Mitigate pirate attacks since the island was an infamous pirate cove
Discourage Europeans to make further inroad to China and create a buffer province. Taiwan was called Formosa it was a contested territory between the Spanish and the Dutch.
Vietnam is not a Chinese populated nation but Chinese influenced.
Singapore and Taiwan to China would be New York and Canada to Europeans. The first one an economic hub while the latter a frontier region filled with indigenous people.
越南長期以來一直是中國的一個省份，而由于遠(yuǎn)離中國的帝都，當(dāng)?shù)厝撕苋菀自诓粩辔罩袊幕绊懙耐瑫r(shí)形成自己獨(dú)特的文化身份。
在明朝之前，新加坡最初是一個馬來漁村，為中國南方沿海村莊的貧困漁民和農(nóng)民提供了離開大陸尋求經(jīng)濟(jì)繁榮的機(jī)會。馬六甲海峽為他們提供了與當(dāng)?shù)厝?、印度人、阿拉伯人、波斯人和其他東南亞人進(jìn)行貿(mào)易的大量機(jī)會，是他們的金礦。當(dāng)歐洲人殖民該地區(qū)時(shí)，越來越多的華南人前往新加坡、檳城、普吉島和其他戰(zhàn)略島嶼基地，因?yàn)樗麄冊谥袊鴽]有未來。
臺灣的情況與海峽殖民地（新加坡等）大致相同，但動機(jī)不同。明末和后來的清朝政府鼓勵同樣來自中國南方的貧苦農(nóng)民在島上定居，目的是：
1. 減少海盜襲擊，因?yàn)樵搷u是臭名昭著的海盜灣
2. 阻止歐洲人進(jìn)一步入侵中國，建立一個緩沖省份。臺灣被稱為福爾摩沙，是西班牙人和荷蘭人爭奪的領(lǐng)土。
越南不是華人聚居的國家，但受中國影響。
新加坡和臺灣（地區(qū)）之于中國，就如同紐約和加拿大之于歐洲人。前者是經(jīng)濟(jì)中心，后者則是充滿原住民的邊疆地區(qū)。
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