韓國決定暫停約7,000名實習醫(yī)生的醫(yī)療執(zhí)照,“醫(yī)生的平均收入是20萬美元,他們想保住自己的頂層收入””醫(yī)生置病人生命而不顧,沒有職業(yè)道德“”我第一次支持尹政府的決定“
South Korea moves to suspend about 7,000 trainee doctors’ medical licenses譯文簡介
路透首爾3月4日,自2月21日起,全韓100家大型綜合醫(yī)院共有9275名實習醫(yī)生和住院醫(yī)生提交辭職報告,占這些醫(yī)院以上醫(yī)生群體的74.4%。引發(fā)此次罷工的原因是韓國政府決定從2025學年高考開始擴招醫(yī)科學生,數(shù)量從現(xiàn)行的3058人增至5058人。這一決定引發(fā)了醫(yī)生群體的不滿,他們認為這一政策會導致醫(yī)生過剩、醫(yī)療資源分配不均以及醫(yī)保系統(tǒng)資金緊張等問題。韓國衛(wèi)生部長周一表示,當局將開始檢查醫(yī)院,以便對無視最后通牒的實習醫(yī)生采取法律行動,以結(jié)束因政府計劃增加醫(yī)學院招生而舉行的罷工。
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@IvanThePohBear
i dont understand why the junior docs are so against university increasing intake?
我不明白為什么初級醫(yī)生如此反對大學增加招生?
More doctors: less prestige to the Dr. title and they fear competition will lead to lower wages. Mind you, they are about 8 times higher than the national median.
更多的醫(yī)生的話,醫(yī)生頭銜的聲望會降低,同時他們也擔心競爭會導致工資降低。請注意,醫(yī)生的收入大約是全國中位數(shù)的8倍。
Average doctor pay is 200k. In canada it’s 150k according to glassdoor. Median income for korea is usd 23k vs 30k in canada.
醫(yī)生的平均收入是20萬美元。根據(jù)Glassdoor的數(shù)據(jù),加拿大是15萬美元。韓國的中位收入是2.3萬美元,而加拿大是3萬美元。
In order to preserve their top-tier income, disregarding the safety of patients contravenes the Hippocratic Oath.
為了保住自己的頂層收入,置病人的安危而不顧,這違背了希波克拉底誓言。
Think of it like a fancy sportscar; if you're one of, say, a few thousand people that own it, it holds prestige. If you're one of a few million people that own it.. less prestige.
把它想象成一輛豪華跑車;如果你是少數(shù)幾千個擁有它的人之一,那么它就代表著尊貴地位。但如果你是數(shù)百萬擁有它的人之一,那么它的尊貴感就會減弱。
their seniors are forcing them to. Seniority is a big thing in Asian culture. You don't question the request from an elder, just follow it
they are almost at the gold mine and now you tell them they have to fight for the gold with 2000 more doctors in the future
prestige of being a physician. Similar to the US, all doctors are so high and mighty that many think they are gods. It also brings up the
doctors teach doctors so they might have to teach more students in the future. But they also don't have to work as many hours since there will be more doctors to take shifts
他們的前輩正在迫使年輕的實習醫(yī)生們接受這個現(xiàn)實。在亞洲文化中,資歷占據(jù)極其重要的地位。對于年長者的要求,你不應(yīng)提出質(zhì)疑,只需遵照執(zhí)行。他們幾乎就要觸及到自己的職業(yè)巔峰——就如同找到一座金礦,但現(xiàn)在卻被告知未來將有額外2000名醫(yī)生加入這場對金礦的爭奪。
醫(yī)生這一職業(yè)擁有極高的威望,這一點與美國相似,許多醫(yī)生地位極高,以至于很多人視其為如同神明一般的存在。同時,這也引發(fā)了一個話題,
即醫(yī)生需要培養(yǎng)新一代的醫(yī)生,因此在未來他們可能需要教授更多的學生。但另一方面,隨著更多醫(yī)生的加入,他們在排班時便無需承擔過多的工作時間,因為會有更多的醫(yī)生共同分擔值班任務(wù)。
Physicians is a profession that often use patient care as a reason to gatekeep. It's apparent they don't care about that when they are abandoning them just to protest
I also want to add that these trainees studied their asses off to get a position and increasing them means that now people who had somewhat worse result can likely get positions.
醫(yī)生這個職業(yè)常常以患者關(guān)懷作為設(shè)立行業(yè)門檻的理由。然而,當他們僅僅為了抗議而棄患者于不顧時,明顯可以看出他們并非真的關(guān)心這一點。另外,我還想指出,這些受訓醫(yī)生都曾為了獲取職位而拼盡全力學習。一旦增加醫(yī)生數(shù)量,意味著那些成績相對稍差的人也可能獲得職位。
A+ move by Korea to punish these fucks.
Sorry, but studying your ass off doesn’t mean you can gatekeep.
I’ve studied hard too and I’ve trained people who might really one day replace me as a university professor but guess what? It’s life. I rather there be more teachers for the next generation so hopefully more get to attend college and get an education rather then gatekeep like some of my peers.
Are some of my colleagues worse than me? Sure. Do I care if they can still get the job done? Nope. Now imagine this for something like a doctor. Any nation always needs more doctors and medical professionals. There is no argument to be embraced here.
韓國采取行動懲罰這些人堪稱明智之舉。 不過請記住,拼命學習并不賦予你設(shè)立行業(yè)壁壘的權(quán)利。我同樣刻苦鉆研,也曾指導過一些未來可能取代我成為大學教授的學生。但生活就是這樣。我寧愿下一代能夠擁有更多的教師資源,以便讓更多人有機會進入大學接受教育,而不是像我某些同行那樣設(shè)置障礙。
確實,我的一些同事在能力上可能比我稍遜一籌,但我在乎他們能否勝任工作嗎?其實并不。試想一下類似的情況應(yīng)用在醫(yī)生職業(yè)上:任何國家始終都需要更多的醫(yī)生和醫(yī)療專業(yè)人才,這一點是毋庸置疑、無需爭論的。
Absolutely agree with your comment. Healthcare and medical services, especially in a country where the population is aging, cannot, and should not, be gatekept.
完全同意你的觀點。醫(yī)療保健和醫(yī)療服務(wù),特別是在人口老齡化的國家,不能也不應(yīng)該被限制。
I never said I agree with them or think they are justified.
It’s just an observation I have had overall during my 10 years in Korea. Koreans very much have an ’I suffered, so you should too’ attitude.
我從未表示過我贊同他們的觀點或認為他們的行為合理。
這只是我在韓國生活十年期間所觀察到的一個總體現(xiàn)象。韓國人普遍具有“我曾經(jīng)受苦,你也應(yīng)當如此”的態(tài)度。
Kind of like the anti-student loan-cancellation crowd in the US.
這有點類似于美國反對取消學生貸款群體的態(tài)度。
Gatekeeping is even worse in the US medical field. Med school acceptance rate is like 5% at most schools. When there's not enough doctors to go around, they started letting nurses and NPs to act like primary care and write prescxtions but still won't allow more students into medical schools. When no one wants to go into low paying specialities, they loosen the rules so foreign doctors can take those jobs (in only those specialities). It's all in an effort to make sure doctors are in demand and thus command a larger salary. There is zero justification why we need to wait 2 weeks to see a specialist in a nation like USA.
在美國醫(yī)療領(lǐng)域,限制他人進入的情況甚至更糟。大多數(shù)學校的醫(yī)學院錄取率大約是5%。當醫(yī)生不夠分配時,他們開始允許護士和護士執(zhí)業(yè)醫(yī)師像全科醫(yī)生一樣行動并開處方,但仍然不允許更多的學生進入醫(yī)學院。當沒有人愿意從事低薪專業(yè)時,他們會放寬規(guī)定,讓外國醫(yī)生接手這些工作(僅限這些專業(yè))。這一切都是為了確保醫(yī)生的需求,在美國這樣的國家,我們竟然需要等待兩周才能見到??漆t(yī)生,這是完全站不住腳的。
They're talking about adding a couple thousand more, not couple millions. The 'somewhat worse' results are like what, 3.945 GPA being sufficient instead of 3.95? It's a joke.
他們談?wù)摰氖窃黾訋浊t(yī)生,而不是幾百萬名。所謂的“成績稍遜”是指什么呢?比如原本需要3.95的GPA現(xiàn)在3.945就足夠了嗎?這簡直是個笑話。
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Yes it is a joke but people are like that. Crabs in a bucket man
沒錯,這確實是個笑話,但人們往往就是如此。就像桶里的螃蟹一樣,互相鉗制不許對方爬出桶口。
the few thousands that will get into a medical school with the new slots are also people who studied their asses off and are at the very, very top of all grades, in most cases we are talking about a decimal degree difference, the public will in no way be worse off with the new doctors
新增的數(shù)千個醫(yī)學院名額也會被同樣刻苦學習并在大多數(shù)情況下僅相差小數(shù)點后幾位成績的頂尖學子獲得。公眾絕對不會因為這批新醫(yī)生的出現(xiàn)而受到不利影響。
Absolutely the correct move and an incredibly brave one too,
The lives of Korean citizens arnt to be held hostage for personal prestige.
絕對是正確的舉措,也是非常勇敢的一步,
韓國公民的生命不應(yīng)該因為個人聲望而被挾持。
As someone who is not fully informed, what is your understanding of the trainee doctors actions?
作為一個不太了解情況的人,你對實習醫(yī)生的行動有何理解?
The protests or the cause?
They believe allowing more doctors to train waters down the skillset and doesnt fix other problems.
They have suspended work. Most surgeries are being pushed back due to low staffing... (The exact issue the government is trying to prevent.)
But there is a darker reason for the protests. Face culture. Doctors are a restricted and prestigious profession, Doctors are outraged that their social standing and monetary reward will be less with more "normal" people able to become doctors.
這里指的是抗議活動還是其背后的原因?
醫(yī)生們認為,允許更多醫(yī)生接受培訓會稀釋技能水平,并且無法解決其他相關(guān)問題。目前,他們已經(jīng)暫停了工作,由于人手短缺,大部分手術(shù)被迫推遲——而這恰恰是政府試圖通過增加醫(yī)生數(shù)量來避免的問題。
但抗議的背后還隱藏著一個更為陰暗的原因,那就是面子文化。醫(yī)生是一個既受限制又享有崇高社會地位的職業(yè),醫(yī)生們憤慨的是,隨著更多“普通人”有機會成為醫(yī)生,他們的社會地位和經(jīng)濟回報將會降低。
A coworker of mine teaches a doctor. She says there are aspects that the media isnt covering.
Doctors teach new doctors. So, they will have to teach double the students for no extra pay.
Classrooms are maxed out already. They will have to find space for double the number of students, or create spaces, with no funds provided.
Students learn anatomy from cadavers. This is difficult in Korea due to burial customs. They will need to find double the amount of bodies without..... Youve guessed it, no extra funding.
They basically want current doctors at university hospitals to work full time as doctors, then work double the current hours as teachers too. Doctors are overworked already, this will lead to accidents.
我的一位同事負責教授醫(yī)學生。她提到,媒體并沒有報道其中的一些方面。
醫(yī)生通常需要教導新的醫(yī)生,這意味著在沒有額外報酬的情況下,他們將不得不教授雙倍的學生人數(shù)。
當前的教室已經(jīng)滿負荷運作,學校必須找出空間容納雙倍的學生數(shù)量,或者創(chuàng)造新的教學空間,但在沒有提供額外資金的情況下實現(xiàn)這一點非常困難。
醫(yī)學生通過解剖尸體來學習人體解剖學,而在韓國,由于喪葬習俗的影響,尸體來源非常有限。在這種條件下,他們需要尋找雙倍數(shù)量的用于解剖的遺體,而且正如你可能猜到的,這部分也沒有額外的資金支持。
簡而言之,他們希望大學醫(yī)院的現(xiàn)任醫(yī)生不僅要全職擔任醫(yī)生職務(wù),還要承擔目前兩倍的教學工作時間。醫(yī)生們本就超負荷工作,這種情況可能導致醫(yī)療事故的發(fā)生。
The korean medical org she is assigned to actively fought against expansions to schooling.
Your friend is being disingenious with the truth.
Its entirely being funded by the government, they already had provincial agreements with schools.
她所屬的韓國醫(yī)療機構(gòu)一直積極抵制醫(yī)學院校擴招。
您的朋友對事實有所曲解。
實際上,醫(yī)學院擴招計劃完全是由政府出資,并且他們早已與各地方院校達成了省級合作協(xié)議。
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But classrooms setup for 100 students are now told to accommodate 200, or have the doctors teach the same class twice as part of their duties. No new facilities will be built any time soon.
但原本設(shè)計容納100名學生的教室現(xiàn)在被要求接納200名學生,或者讓醫(yī)生作為其職責的一部分,重復教授同一門課程兩次。而且短期內(nèi)不會有新建的教學設(shè)施。
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Why is it mostly the trainees then and not the current doctors/teachers??
為什么罷工的主要是實習生而不是現(xiàn)在的醫(yī)生/教師呢??
Never the excuse to take your patients hostage. Makes you question the integrity of these medical practitioners who'd use your wellbeing as bargaining chips.
Too much work to do? They might as well go fuck themselves in unemployment.
絕對不能以病人為要挾,這種行為不禁讓人懷疑這些醫(yī)療從業(yè)者的道德品質(zhì),他們竟然將自己的職責和患者的安康當作談判條件。如果抱怨工作負擔太重,那他們還不如直接失業(yè)算了。
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If doctors are overworked doesn't it make sense to train more doctors?
如果醫(yī)生過勞,那么培訓更多的醫(yī)生難道不是更有意義的嗎?
But it is the overworked doctors who will do this training. That's the issue. The solution is the doctors who are teaching classes of 100 students, can either teach classes of 200, or teach 2 clases of 100 whilst working as doctors in the hospital.
問題在于,培訓工作將由那些已經(jīng)過度勞累的醫(yī)生來承擔。解決方案則是讓那些本來教授100名學生班級的醫(yī)生,要么教授包含200名學生的班級,要么在醫(yī)院擔任醫(yī)生的同時,教授兩個各有100名學生的班級。
I'd imagine that could be worked out. And if that is indeed the only problem they have then the doctors need to hire a better PR firm. The AMA in the US for example has enforced the same doctor quota for decades to keep salaries high so perhaps I'm a bit cynical.
我想這是可以解決的。如果這確實是他們唯一面臨的問題,那么醫(yī)生們需要聘請一家更好的公關(guān)公司。例如,美國醫(yī)學協(xié)會(AMA)幾十年來一直強制執(zhí)行醫(yī)生配額制度以維持高薪,所以我可能有點憤世嫉俗。
Schools have the space and jumping on the opportunity to have additional medicine TOs. My school has a building the same size for medicine as for half of engineering. 600 students per year versus 40. It's a ghost town. Famous university with a famous hospital. Most of the doctor's arguments don't stand up under scrutiny.
學校有足夠的空間,并正在抓住機會增設(shè)醫(yī)學教師職位。以我的學校為例,用于醫(yī)學專業(yè)的樓舍面積與工程專業(yè)的一半相當,每年招收600名醫(yī)學學生,而工程專業(yè)只招收40名學生。盡管是一所擁有著名醫(yī)院的知名大學,但大部分的醫(yī)生論點經(jīng)不起推敲,事實上,醫(yī)學大樓常??帐幦绻沓恰?/b>
The moment the doctor's strikes threaten the life of their patients is the moment their protest loses every legitimacy. They pleaded the Hippocratic oath, once they breach it they are no longer doctors. Btw I know the issue very well not by teaching but living with several doctors for 40 years
一旦醫(yī)生罷工威脅到患者生命安全的那一刻起,他們的抗議行動就會失去所有正當性。他們曾宣誓遵守希波克拉底誓言,一旦違背誓言,他們就不再是真正的醫(yī)生。順便提一句,我對這個問題非常了解,并非通過教學,而是因為我與幾位醫(yī)生共同生活了40年。
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It's an incredibly effective tactic to target individuals' career paths...
If the govt says something like last x number of people who fail to return to work will permanently lose their medical license with no chance of appeal, then that might potentially trigger panic amongst the protestors...
這種針對個體職業(yè)生涯路徑的策略極為有效……如果政府宣布,最后一批未能返崗工作的醫(yī)生將永久吊銷其行醫(yī)執(zhí)照,且無申訴機會,那么這很可能在抗議者中引發(fā)恐慌……
… are you out your damn mind, that’s 40-60% of licensed hospital staff who will be forced to give new doctors and whoever stays grueling 112-120 hour work weeks.
If they stop working, the sick are effectively going to be abandoned.
…你是不是瘋了,這意味著40%至60%的在冊醫(yī)院工作人員將被迫給新醫(yī)生以及留下的醫(yī)生安排每周高達112至120小時的繁重工作量。
如果他們停止工作,實質(zhì)上就是將病人棄之不顧。
You're assuming absolutely nothing can be done to fill the gap to help the patients. But, there are other healthcare professionals like nurses who can effectively fill the gap. The only thing stopping them is a legal boundary saying they can't do certain things. The reality is though that many of them actually possess the necessary skills, knowledge, and experience to perform the task at a similar level.
您似乎在假設(shè)沒有任何辦法填補醫(yī)護人員空缺以幫助病人。但實際上,還有諸如護士等其他醫(yī)療保健專業(yè)人員能夠有效地填補這一空缺。唯一阻礙他們發(fā)揮作用的是法律邊界規(guī)定了他們不能從事某些特定工作。然而,現(xiàn)實中,許多護士實際上已經(jīng)具備了執(zhí)行類似任務(wù)所需的相關(guān)技能、知識和經(jīng)驗。
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The reason hosiptals use junior doctors are because they are cheap. Hospitals are not going to hire nurses that have double slsary or trainee docctors nor would nurses want more responsibility for the same pay.
醫(yī)院使用初級醫(yī)生的原因是他們便宜。醫(yī)院不會雇傭薪水翻倍的護士或?qū)嵙曖t(yī)生,護士也不會希望在同樣的薪水下承擔更多的責任。
Doctors and nurses are not interchangeable. You significantly underestimate what 'junior' doctors do, who may have up to 30,000 hours of training and clinical experience under their belt before they finish. Training is incomparable.
醫(yī)生和護士不是可以互換的。你嚴重低估了“初級”醫(yī)生的工作,他們在完成學業(yè)之前可能已經(jīng)有多達30,000小時的培訓和臨床經(jīng)驗。他們的培訓是無法比較的。
will permanently lose their medical license with no chance of appeal
Revoking a license in this manner literally bans people from being doctors for the rest of their lives. You're assuming absolutely nothing can be done to fill the gap to help the patients
Literally the only practical thing that can be done is literally freaking nothing, in that scenario. Best case scenario is Korea attempts to immigrate thousands of foreign doctors by enticing them with rights, privileges, and protection from rampant Korean ethnic discrimination, which is nigh on never going to happen.
將永久剝奪其行醫(yī)執(zhí)照,且無上訴機會 這種方式實際上是在禁止相關(guān)人員終身從事醫(yī)生職業(yè)。您假定無法采取任何措施填補空缺以幫助患者。 在那種情況下,唯一可行的實際操作就是基本上什么也不做。最好的情況是韓國嘗試通過提供權(quán)利、特權(quán)以及保護他們免受普遍存在的種族歧視待遇,吸引數(shù)千名外國醫(yī)生移民過來,但這幾乎是不可能發(fā)生的。
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Absolutely! The doctors need to be held accountable. All too often Koreans have a mentality of not facing up to the responsibility of their actions and shifting blame on to others. I have seen this time and time again over the many years I have been here. It seems to be an innate trait among the Korean people in general.
確實如此!醫(yī)生應(yīng)該為此承擔責任。韓國人往往有一種不愿直面自己行為責任、轉(zhuǎn)而將過錯歸咎他人的傾向。在我在這里多年的時間里,我已經(jīng)一次又一次地目睹了這一現(xiàn)象。這似乎是一種韓國人普遍固有的特質(zhì)。
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I find it hypocritical that they complain about getting overworked but also protested against nurses getting more responsibility.
我覺得他們抱怨過度勞累,同時又反對護士承擔更多責任,這是虛偽的。
Remember, the medical association is the one that goes apeshit about trying to make tattooing without a medical license legal.
You NEED a medical license to give tattoos in Korea. I believe there have been attempts to repeal that, but the doctors really did not like it.
請記住,醫(yī)療協(xié)會堅決反對將無醫(yī)療執(zhí)照紋身合法化。在韓國,你必須持有醫(yī)療執(zhí)照才能從事紋身工作。我相信曾有人試圖廢除這一規(guī)定,但醫(yī)生們對此非常不滿。
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Which is such an obvious attempt to just hold on to power and feel special. How many doctors are actually giving tattoos?
這是一種明顯的試圖保持權(quán)力和特殊感的行為。實際上有多少醫(yī)生在給人紋身呢?
So are the tattooists illegal because I highly doubt all those tattooists are medical doctors
那么紋身師是非法的嗎?因為我高度懷疑所有那些紋身師都是醫(yī)生。
It's kind of funny how out of touch they are. Like there's a way to do this without making themselves look like assholes. Instead, they add fuel to fire and play into every negative portrayal. You reap what you sow
很諷刺的是,他們竟然如此脫節(jié)。其實本可以不用把自己變成惡人的方式來解決問題,但他們卻選擇了火上澆油,加深了自身的負面形象。種什么因,得什么果。
Exactly this. When the public is against your demands (and not only the government) is over for you, and they're so out of touch they don't see it. They're willing to lose their licenses instead of sitting down with the government for them both to compromise and/or reach a middle ground.
正是如此。當公眾站在你的對立面(不僅僅只是政府),你們就已經(jīng)輸了,但他們卻沒有意識到這一點,與現(xiàn)實嚴重脫節(jié)。他們寧可冒著丟掉醫(yī)療執(zhí)照的風險,也不愿意坐下來與政府協(xié)商妥協(xié),尋求雙方都能接受的中間地帶。
Doctors have gone too far this time. Abandoning lives cannot be justified for a doctor.
這次醫(yī)生們做得太過分了。放棄病人的生命對醫(yī)生來說是不可原諒的。
If patients died due to the doctors walkout and protest then wouldn't they have effectively violated their Hippocratic oath that they took when they became doctors in the first place?
如果病人因為醫(yī)生的罷工和抗議而死亡,那么他們豈不是實際上違反了他們最初成為醫(yī)生時所宣誓的希波克拉底誓言?
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They need to make a serious example out of them or this cycle of protesting will never end. Make sure the main instigators are banned from practising forever.
需要對這些人做出嚴肅的處理,以此為鑒,否則抗議循環(huán)將永無止境。確保主要煽動者被永久禁止行醫(yī)。
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Ah yes, because shooting yourself in the foot is a great way to walk faster. If you ban them, the medical system is going to be under even more strain and more people will suffer. 6000+ doctors is not a skill set demographic you can replace quickly anywhere in the world, let alone in a country with a unique language like Korean. (Unlike countries that speak english/French/Spanish, where, in theory, there's a whole diaspora of trained doctors that could immigrate in and sit the exams)
啊,沒錯,因為自斷一足顯然是加快行走速度的好方法。如果對他們進行禁令處罰,醫(yī)療系統(tǒng)將會承受更大的壓力,更多的人將會受到影響。在全球范圍內(nèi),尤其是像韓國這樣擁有獨特語言的國家,6000多名醫(yī)生并不是一個可以迅速替代的技術(shù)人才群體。相比之下,在理論上,那些使用英語、法語或西班牙語的國家有一整個海外受訓醫(yī)生群體,他們可以移民進來并通過相關(guān)考試來填補空缺。
You are not wrong. But either that or government will be forever under the thumbs of these terrorists.
您說得沒錯。但如果不這樣做,政府可能會永遠受這些恐怖分子的控制。
Protesting working conditions does not make people terrorists. Holy Overton window dude. You are equating people who are trying to fight for better working conditions to people who blow shit up to terrorize civilians. That is not okay or accurate.
抗議工作條件并不等于恐怖分子。天哪,您這是在混淆概念。您將爭取改善工作條件的人與通過爆炸襲擊恐嚇平民的人相提并論,這是不恰當且不準確的。
People have ALREADY died due to these protests.
They are betting on the lives of citizens to artificially restrict their proffesion (gatekeep). When we are already critically short on Doctors.
Terrorism, hostage taking are the CORRECT terms.
已有民眾因這些抗議活動而死亡。
他們正押注于公民的生命,以人工方式限制他們的職業(yè)(設(shè)置行業(yè)門檻)。而我們現(xiàn)在嚴重缺乏醫(yī)生。
恐怖主義、劫持人質(zhì)等用詞是恰如其分的。
Are you sure?
Definition of terrorist: “In its broadest sense, is the use of intentional violence and intimidation to achieve political or ideological aims”
你確定嗎?
恐怖主義的廣義定義:“指為了實現(xiàn)政治或意識形態(tài)目標,有意使用暴力和恐嚇手段。”
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Yes, I work in public safety and get to read all the fun intelligence bulletins sent to my workplace about what actual terrorists are up to. When you are planning to protect your workplace from actually murderous fuckwits, while also accomodating a rotating cadre of people who are non violently protesting on the property for whatever grievances they have, these definitions are important.
是的,我從事公共安全工作,經(jīng)常會收到關(guān)于真實恐怖分子活動的情報簡報。當我們既要防范那些真正具有殺傷力的混蛋,同時又要妥善應(yīng)對因各種不滿而在工作場所進行非暴力抗議的人群時,這些定義非常重要。
Yeah I’ll give you that. They are in a tough spot. And I do see how adding more trainees to the system will hurt their chances of advancement as there will be more competition. What I have issue with is the way they went about negotiating with the government. This mass workout which effectively has crippled many parts of vital system is in my mind effectively terrorism. You don’t have to blow shit up and kill people directly to be causing terror. They have taken the well being of the people as hostage and negotiating with the shitty government in order to get what they want.
是的,我承認這一點。他們處境艱難。我確實看到了增加更多實習生對系統(tǒng)的影響,會因為他們面臨更多競爭而損害他們的晉升機會。我對他們與政府談判的方式有問題。這種大規(guī)模的罷工實際上已經(jīng)使許多關(guān)鍵系統(tǒng)的部分癱瘓,在我看來,這實際上就是恐怖主義。你不必直接炸毀東西和殺人來制造恐怖。他們把人民的福祉作為人質(zhì),與糟糕的政府談判,以獲得他們想要的東西。
Other critical infrastructure strikes do it in a staggered manner. Like 30% walk off the job as to not bring the whole system down. That’s what non-narcissistic people do.
其他關(guān)鍵基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施的罷工是以錯開的方式進行的。比如30%的人離開工作崗位,以免整個系統(tǒng)崩潰。這就是非自戀者會做的事情。
They are not protesting working conditions. They are protesting removal of artificial caps on amount of medical trainees. It's not even remotely the same thing.
他們不是在抗議工作條件。他們是在抗議取消對醫(yī)學實習生數(shù)量的人為限制。這兩者根本就是完全不同的事情。
Most Korean doctors are skilled in english. Foreign doctors could perform their jobs pretty well. Especially with the relatively high levels of pay Korean doctors already get, it would be an attractive position for foreigners. Not all would have to be patient facing. Remote care and digital health are also technologies that could lessens the load.
大多數(shù)韓國醫(yī)生精通英語。外國醫(yī)生可以很好地執(zhí)行他們的工作。尤其是韓國醫(yī)生已經(jīng)獲得的相對較高的薪酬水平,這對外國人來說將是一個有吸引力的職位。并非所有醫(yī)生都必須直接面對病人。遠程護理和數(shù)字健康也是可以減輕負擔的技術(shù)。
Holdup, so all the patients, nurses and admin these doctors need to interact with can speak English too? And the Korean medical exams are available to be taken in English? Medical professionals in Korea don't need to speak Korean? All the medical documents are in English too?
等等,這些醫(yī)生需要與之互動的病人、護士和行政人員也能說英語嗎?韓國的醫(yī)學考試可以用英語進行嗎?韓國的醫(yī)療專業(yè)人員不需要說韓語嗎?所有的醫(yī)療文件也都是英文的嗎?
Pretty much all your books will aready be in english. The treatment recommendations come mostly from ASCO, in english. Any new medical research is in english. These people are the best students in Korea, they can handle english no problem.
基本上所有的書籍已經(jīng)是英文的了。治療建議主要來自ASCO(美國臨床腫瘤學會),是英文的。任何新的醫(yī)學研究都是英文的。這些人是韓國最優(yōu)秀的學生,他們處理英語沒有問題。
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Your books can be in English but that won't save you from having to write the Korean equivalent of the board exams (I forget what they're called). This not about other medical staff knowing english either. Doctors are useless to their patients if they can't understand their complaints. Any incoming doctors would be replacing those front line trainee doctors. They HAVE to speak Korean. Even if it's so they can interact with the housekeeping staff and read medical records.
你的教科書可以是英文版的,但這并不能讓你免于參加韓國相當于醫(yī)學執(zhí)照考試(我忘了具體名稱)的考試。這不僅僅關(guān)乎其他醫(yī)護人員是否懂英語。如果醫(yī)生不能理解患者的病情描述,那么對患者來說他們就毫無用處。任何新入職的醫(yī)生都將會接替一線實習醫(yī)生的職位。他們必須會說韓語,即使是為了能夠與醫(yī)院的后勤人員交流,以及閱讀病歷記錄。
Classic case of cutting the nose to spite the face. Even the first year residents are 7 years along in their training. Do you think the system would cope with how it is like with the doctors strike for the next 7 years? And no, the English speaking world already has enough issues recruiting foreign med grads. Forget about Korea.
典型的損人不利己。即使是第一年的住院醫(yī)師也已經(jīng)接受了7年的培訓,你覺得在接下來的7年內(nèi),醫(yī)療系統(tǒng)能應(yīng)對因為醫(yī)生罷工而產(chǎn)生的問題嗎?再者,英語國家在招聘外國醫(yī)學院畢業(yè)生方面已經(jīng)有足夠多的問題了,更別提韓國了。
Selfish pricks. Ban their licenses forever. They'll be stuck peddling lasers and Botox.
自私的混蛋。應(yīng)該永遠吊銷他們的行醫(yī)執(zhí)照。這樣他們只能困于售賣激光美容和肉毒素這些業(yè)務(wù)了。
People have literally died because of this walkout/protest.
For people who are in a line of work that says "Do no harm", they sure are doing a lot of harm.
真的有人因為這個罷工/抗議而死亡。
對于那些聲稱“不造成傷害”的職業(yè)的人來說,他們確實造成了很多傷害。
Perfect. Revoke it forever please. Let's import doctors from the Philippines and Latin America while we wait for new doctors to be trained.
完美。請永遠吊銷他們的執(zhí)照。讓我們在等待新醫(yī)生培訓的同時,從菲律賓和拉丁美洲引進醫(yī)生。
Koreans only want doctors from the big5 hospitals they would never go to doctors from latin america or the philippines
韓國人只想要來自五大醫(yī)院的醫(yī)生,他們絕不會去看來自拉丁美洲或菲律賓的醫(yī)生。
Can't. Training and language is different. Send the patients to Japan, or Taiwan for treatment.
不行。培訓和語言是不同的。把病人送到日本或臺灣接受治療。
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Because in Japan and Taiwan the language and training is the same? Lol
因為在日語和臺灣的語言和培訓是一樣的?哈哈。
Native
????? ???????? ????? ???.. ????? ????? ? ? ???..
本地人
菲律賓和拉丁美洲的人會想來這里嗎?.. 韓國人會去他們那里嗎?
If it's suspending, not removing, I don't see anyone batting an eye
如果是暫停而不是取消,我看不出有什么大不了的。
Well, this is a first. I'm actually on board with something the Yoon administration is doing.
好吧,這是第一次。我實際上支持尹政府正在做的某件事。
Bunch of dumbasses? Quite the statement. They can be forced to work since that’s their job. But if they don’t want it. And they’ve quit? Well then they don’t deserve that job back and they should lose their license. It’s called holding someone accountable. Not slavery. You don’t get to hold patients lives as hostage.
一群蠢貨?這可真是個強烈的聲明。理論上可以強迫他們工作,畢竟那是他們的職責所在。但如果他們不愿意做,并且已經(jīng)辭職了,那么他們就不配重新得到這份工作,理應(yīng)吊銷其行醫(yī)執(zhí)照。這叫做追究責任,而不是強制勞動。你不能拿患者的生命作為人質(zhì)。
Gov initially threatened with jailtime for not ‘renewing their contract’. That’s fucking insane. Nope. No one can be forced to work unless they are prisoners. If you quit your job, can the gov make you go back to work? No fucking way. How about this? If you are an engineer and you quit from a company, do you lose your qualifications? So in your logic, no doctor should ever quit unless there’s a replacement? Why? Why do you feel so entitled to their labour? So they can’t take one year break? This shit is what I’m talking about. People like you are the reason why Korean drs leave essential specialties. Entitled to the max.
政府最初威脅如果不“續(xù)簽合同”就要坐牢,這簡直太瘋狂了。不,除非是囚犯,否則任何人都不能被強迫工作。如果你辭職了,政府還能強迫你回去上班嗎?絕對不可能。讓我這么說吧,如果你是一名工程師并且從一家公司辭職,你會因此失去資格認證嗎?按照你的邏輯,是不是沒有找到接替者的醫(yī)生就不能辭職?為什么?為什么你們覺得如此理所當然地占有他們的勞動力?難道他們連一年的休息時間都不能有嗎?這就是我想討論的問題。像你這樣的人正是導致韓國醫(yī)生離開關(guān)鍵專科崗位的原因。過于自以為是,權(quán)利感爆棚。
Those are not comparable situations. Quitting your job as a doctor because of a protest when people are dying is not the same thing as deciding you don’t want to work as a taxi driver anymore. It’s an abuse of a doctors power as a healthcare provider and is unethical. Doctors who do this absolutely should have their licenses revoked, unable to work anymore if they have such a disregard for human life. You’re the fucking insane one if you can’t see that.
這些情況不可比。因為抗議而辭去醫(yī)生工作,當人們正在死亡時,這與決定你不再想當出租車司機是不同的。這是濫用醫(yī)生作為醫(yī)療提供者的力量,是不道德的。這樣做的醫(yī)生絕對應(yīng)該被吊銷執(zhí)照,如果他們?nèi)绱四暼嗣筒荒茉俟ぷ髁?。如果你意識不到這一點,你才是他媽的瘋了。
According to your line of reasoning, can Drs ever strike?
根據(jù)你的推理,醫(yī)生可以罷工嗎?
While I believe there are ethical ways for doctors to go on strike, I don't consider quitting en masse and submitting resignations to be among them.
雖然我相信你有道德的方式讓醫(yī)生罷工,但我不認為大規(guī)模辭職并提交辭職信是其中之一。
I’ve been to Korean highschool. Also 150k? Lolll There’s not a single dr who makes that unless they work 2 day a week max. In BC Family Docs get paid 375k base from gov. You can check their gov billings online- they take 70-90% home. Of course you can private bill with cosmetics and bill more. 100% of Canadian doctors are incorporated, which means they take salary out of their company and park the rest of the money so you won’t see it accurately on ‘glassdoor’. 0 of my colleagues would go work in Korea because u get paid next to nothing. As a new grad fam doc (lowest pay), you’ll make 300k guaranteed. Most docs make 1-2k a day. Hospitalist make $300/hr. Of course specialists make way more. Close to 700-1mil. A fucking hygienist makes 150k lol
我去過韓國高中就讀,至于你說的年薪15萬美金?哈哈,除非每周只工作兩天,否則不會有醫(yī)生掙那么少。在加拿大BC省,家庭醫(yī)生的基本工資是由政府支付的,能達到37.5萬加元。你可以在線查看他們的政府收費情況——他們通常能將70%-90%的收入帶回家。當然,他們還可以通過提供化妝品等私人服務(wù)額外收費,增加收入。所有加拿大的醫(yī)生都是注冊成立公司的,這意味著他們會從公司領(lǐng)取薪水,并將剩余資金留存,所以你在類似"玻璃門"這樣的網(wǎng)站上看到的數(shù)據(jù)并不準確。
我的同事們沒有一個愿意去韓國工作,因為在那里的收入幾乎可以忽略不計。作為一名剛畢業(yè)的家庭醫(yī)生(收入最低),也能保證年收入至少30萬加元。大多數(shù)醫(yī)生每天能賺取1000至2000加元。醫(yī)院內(nèi)科醫(yī)生每小時能賺300加元。當然,??漆t(yī)生的收入更高,接近70萬至100萬加元。就連牙科保健員都能掙到15萬加元,哈哈。
They didn't quit. They want to keep their jobs, and will come back to working if and when government caves in to their demands (hopefully won't come to that, though).
他們沒有辭職。他們想要保住自己的工作,如果政府屈服于他們的要求,他們會回來工作的(希望事情不會發(fā)展到那一步)。
People be worrying about the quota when the real problem is the risk of privatization of the medical system by the new policies.. But also the quota, although necessary, is unfounded (the evidence the govt used for the quota has been proven false).
人們在擔心配額問題,而真正的問題是新政策帶來的醫(yī)療系統(tǒng)私有化的風險。但配額問題,雖然必要,卻是沒有根據(jù)的(政府用來設(shè)定配額的證據(jù)已被證明是錯誤的)。
If a doctor finished their shift for the day and then said I’m not showing up tomorrow, you’ll are own you’ll own. That is not abandonment. that is acceptable protest. They are not actively responsible for anyone.
如果一名醫(yī)生完成了一天的工作后宣布明天不再出現(xiàn),那么他們在這一天結(jié)束時就已經(jīng)盡完了職責,這不是遺棄行為,這是一種合理的抗議方式。他們在下班后就不對任何人負有積極的責任了。
If patients have scheduled care with the doctor and they cancel by participating in a mass strike. That seems morally questionable to me. Especially in a mass-strike where they know rescheduling will be more difficult for the patient.
如果有患者已經(jīng)預約了醫(yī)生進行治療,而醫(yī)生由于參與大規(guī)模罷工而取消診療,我認為這種做法在道德層面上是有問題的,特別是當醫(yī)生明知罷工會導致患者重新安排就診變得極其困難時。
kill the chicken to warn the monkey.
this is a classic asian tactic to make the rest fall in line
殺雞儆猴。
這是一個經(jīng)典的亞洲策略,用來警告其他人,使其遵守規(guī)定。
There are 138 comments on this post at the time of me writing this and NO ONE has even mentioned the core issue that the doctors keep bringing up
Increasing the number of doctors DOES NOT INCENTIVIZE DOCTORS TO WORK AT FACILITIES THAT ARE NOT ENTICING TO WORK AT.
在我寫這篇文章時,有138條評論,但沒有人提到醫(yī)生一直提出的核心問題
增加醫(yī)生的數(shù)量并不會激勵醫(yī)生去那些不吸引人工作的設(shè)施工作。
That's not how markets work. More doctors = more doctors pushed into all specialties and areas.
市場不是這樣運作的。更多的醫(yī)生意味著更多的醫(yī)生被推向所有專業(yè)和領(lǐng)域。
Believe or not, Korea is a socialist society that government dictates a lot of things.
Medical is one of those - that Government has upper hand.
As a single payer for medical practice, government is responsible to make sure there is enough providers.
信不信由你,韓國是一個政府主導并干預很多事務(wù)的社會主義社會。
醫(yī)療行業(yè)就是其中之一,政府在這方面握有較大權(quán)力。
作為醫(yī)療服務(wù)單一支付方,韓國政府負責確保有足夠的醫(yī)療服務(wù)提供者。
Absolutely. Showing their true character. Medical school isn’t about money and prestige. It’s about saving lives.
確實如此。這揭示了他們真正的品質(zhì)。醫(yī)學院的學習并不僅僅是關(guān)于金錢和聲望,而是關(guān)乎拯救生命。
Currently, the conflict between the Korean government and the medical community remains unresolved, with the strike actions continuing and significantly impacting medical services in South Korea. Negotiations and dialogues between the government and the medical sector are still ongoing, but specific solutions and the ultimate outcome of the strike have not yet been clarified.
目前,韓國政府和醫(yī)療界之間的矛盾尚未得到解決,罷工行動仍在繼續(xù),對韓國的醫(yī)療服務(wù)造成了顯著影響。政府和醫(yī)療界之間的談判和對話仍在進行中,但具體的解決方案和罷工的最終結(jié)果尚未明確。