QA問答：是否有任何已知的中國古代文明存在于夏朝之前，而且與商朝無關，譬如在歷史文獻或神話中沒有提及的那種？
Are there any known ancient Chinese civilizations that existed before the Xia Dynasty and are not connected to the Shang Dynasty or mentioned in historical texts or myths?
譯文簡介
是否有任何已知的中國古代文明存在于夏朝之前，而且與商朝無關
正文翻譯
@Aya Shawn
Living in Singapore, professional investorJan 29
Two keywords are mentioned in this question: history and myth
Historical documents are very serious matters to the Chinese. It does not mean that just randomly discovering some stone carvings, scxtures, or parchment scrolls can be called "historical documents." The "historical documents" recognized by the Chinese are actually is very limited. Basically they are serious, formal historical archives and books.
The xia Dynasty is the first dynasty recorded in Chinese historical documents, there is no earlier one.
這個問題提到了兩個關鍵詞：歷史和神話
歷史文獻對于中國人來說是非常嚴肅的事情。并不是說隨便發(fā)現(xiàn)的一些石刻、經(jīng)文、羊皮卷軸就可以稱為“歷史文獻”。中國人承認的“歷史文獻”其實非常有限?；旧纤鼈兪菄烂C的、正式的歷史檔案和書籍。
夏朝是中國歷史文獻記載的第一個王朝，沒有更早的王朝。
In addition to formal historical documents, other civilizations, countries or dynasties before the xia Dynasty will of course be recorded. However, in the Chinese view of history, these records can only be classified as "myths" or "unofficial histories", and they are not recognized by history.
In order to respect the historical habits of the Chinese people, I think it is inappropriate to use mythology and unofficial history to discuss the civilization before the xia Dynasty.
But this issue can be discussed using archaeological findings. Although in the eyes of the Chinese, simple archaeological discoveries cannot be regarded as trustworthy history. But their credibility is higher than myths and unofficial histories.
除了正式的歷史文獻之外，夏朝之前的其他文明、國家或朝代當然也會有記載。但在中國人的歷史觀中，這些記載只能歸為“神話”或“野史”，不被歷史所承認。
為了尊重中國人的歷史習慣，我認為用神話和野史來討論夏朝之前的文明是不合適的。
但這個問題可以用考古發(fā)現(xiàn)來討論。雖然在中國人看來，簡單的考古發(fā)現(xiàn)并不能算是值得信賴的歷史。但它們的可信度高于神話和野史。
In order to respect the historical habits of the Chinese people, I think it is inappropriate to use mythology and unofficial history to discuss the civilization before the xia Dynasty.
But this issue can be discussed using archaeological findings. Although in the eyes of the Chinese, simple archaeological discoveries cannot be regarded as trustworthy history. But their credibility is higher than myths and unofficial histories.
除了正式的歷史文獻之外，夏朝之前的其他文明、國家或朝代當然也會有記載。但在中國人的歷史觀中，這些記載只能歸為“神話”或“野史”，不被歷史所承認。
為了尊重中國人的歷史習慣，我認為用神話和野史來討論夏朝之前的文明是不合適的。
但這個問題可以用考古發(fā)現(xiàn)來討論。雖然在中國人看來，簡單的考古發(fā)現(xiàn)并不能算是值得信賴的歷史。但它們的可信度高于神話和野史。
1. Liangzhu Civilization
Existing in today's Zhejiang Province, China, it appeared 5,000 years ago and lasted for 500 years, 1,000 years earlier than the establishment of the xia Dynasty.
Archaeologists have discovered large-scale urban ruins here, tens of thousands of acres of rice fields, granaries with hundreds of thousands of kilograms of rice, huge dams and palace ruins. Countless tombs, jades and pottery.
UNESCO has designated the archaeological finds here as a World Cultural Heritage. After measuring the scale of houses, tombs, and rice fields, archaeologists estimate that tens of thousands of people once lived in and around this city. It was the capital of an ancient country.
But there is not a single word about it in Chinese historical documents.
1. Liangzhu Civilization
良渚文化存在于今天的中國浙江省，它出現(xiàn)于5000年前，持續(xù)了500年，比夏朝的建立早了1000年。
考古學家在這里發(fā)現(xiàn)了大規(guī)模的城市遺址、數(shù)萬畝稻田、儲存數(shù)十萬公斤稻米的糧倉、巨大的水壩和宮殿遺址。無數(shù)的墳墓、玉器和陶器。
聯(lián)合國教科文組織已將這里的考古發(fā)現(xiàn)列為世界文化遺產(chǎn)。在測量了房屋、墳墓和稻田的規(guī)模后，考古學家估計這座城市及其周圍曾經(jīng)居住過數(shù)萬人。它是一個古老國家的首都。
但中國歷史文獻中對此只字未提。
Existing in today's Zhejiang Province, China, it appeared 5,000 years ago and lasted for 500 years, 1,000 years earlier than the establishment of the xia Dynasty.
Archaeologists have discovered large-scale urban ruins here, tens of thousands of acres of rice fields, granaries with hundreds of thousands of kilograms of rice, huge dams and palace ruins. Countless tombs, jades and pottery.
UNESCO has designated the archaeological finds here as a World Cultural Heritage. After measuring the scale of houses, tombs, and rice fields, archaeologists estimate that tens of thousands of people once lived in and around this city. It was the capital of an ancient country.
But there is not a single word about it in Chinese historical documents.
1. Liangzhu Civilization
良渚文化存在于今天的中國浙江省，它出現(xiàn)于5000年前，持續(xù)了500年，比夏朝的建立早了1000年。
考古學家在這里發(fā)現(xiàn)了大規(guī)模的城市遺址、數(shù)萬畝稻田、儲存數(shù)十萬公斤稻米的糧倉、巨大的水壩和宮殿遺址。無數(shù)的墳墓、玉器和陶器。
聯(lián)合國教科文組織已將這里的考古發(fā)現(xiàn)列為世界文化遺產(chǎn)。在測量了房屋、墳墓和稻田的規(guī)模后，考古學家估計這座城市及其周圍曾經(jīng)居住過數(shù)萬人。它是一個古老國家的首都。
但中國歷史文獻中對此只字未提。
2. Sanxingdui Civilization
Sichuan Province, which exists in today's China, appeared 4,800 years ago and lasted for 1,400 years. It was 800 years earlier than the establishment of the xia Dynasty, and its existence spanned the xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasty.
Not only ancient Stone Age ruins were discovered here, but also a large number of relics from the Bronze Age. Huge, complex and exquisite bronzes, ivories, and jades filled the sacrificial pits.
UNESCO has designated the archaeological finds here as a World Cultural Heritage.
However, there is no detailed record of it in Chinese historical documents. There are only some approximate accounts, and they cannot be completely confirmed.
2. Sanxingdui Civilization
位于今天中國的四川省，出現(xiàn)于4800年前，延續(xù)了1400年。比夏朝的建立早了800年，其存在跨越了夏朝和商朝。
這里不僅發(fā)現(xiàn)了遠古石器時代遺址，還發(fā)現(xiàn)了大量青銅時代的遺物。祭祀坑中布滿了巨大、復雜、精美的青銅器、象牙、玉器。
聯(lián)合國教科文組織已將這里的考古發(fā)現(xiàn)列為世界文化遺產(chǎn)。
但中國歷史文獻中并無詳細記載。只有一些大概的說法，并不能完全證實。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉載請注明出處
Sichuan Province, which exists in today's China, appeared 4,800 years ago and lasted for 1,400 years. It was 800 years earlier than the establishment of the xia Dynasty, and its existence spanned the xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasty.
Not only ancient Stone Age ruins were discovered here, but also a large number of relics from the Bronze Age. Huge, complex and exquisite bronzes, ivories, and jades filled the sacrificial pits.
UNESCO has designated the archaeological finds here as a World Cultural Heritage.
However, there is no detailed record of it in Chinese historical documents. There are only some approximate accounts, and they cannot be completely confirmed.
2. Sanxingdui Civilization
位于今天中國的四川省，出現(xiàn)于4800年前，延續(xù)了1400年。比夏朝的建立早了800年，其存在跨越了夏朝和商朝。
這里不僅發(fā)現(xiàn)了遠古石器時代遺址，還發(fā)現(xiàn)了大量青銅時代的遺物。祭祀坑中布滿了巨大、復雜、精美的青銅器、象牙、玉器。
聯(lián)合國教科文組織已將這里的考古發(fā)現(xiàn)列為世界文化遺產(chǎn)。
但中國歷史文獻中并無詳細記載。只有一些大概的說法，并不能完全證實。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉載請注明出處
3. Longshan Civilization
There are multiple sites that exist in today's Shandong and Henan provinces of China.
It appeared 5,000 years ago and lasted for 100 years, 1,000 years earlier than the establishment of the xia Dynasty.
A lage number of jades, pottery, architectural and urban ruins have been discovered in multiple sites of the Longshan Civilization. Because of its location and cultural relic style, it has a certain connection with the xia Dynasty. Archaeologists tend to believe that it is the predecessor of the xia Dynasty.
However, there is no record of it in Chinese historical documents, only some vague records, and they cannot be completely confirmed.
In addition, China has also discovered the remains of many ancient civilizations that date back to earlier times, such as the DwenkouCivilization, Yangshao Civilization, Hemudu Civilization, Hongshan Civilization, and Majiayao Civilization. The earliest urban ruins discovered so far date back to about 8,000 years ago.
However, there is no record of these civilizations and their cities in Chinese historical documents. Therefore, they are not regarded as "official history" by Chinese historical circles, but are uniformly classified as: "prehistoric civilization"
3、龍山文明
在今天的中國山東省和河南省存在多個遺址。
它出現(xiàn)于5000年前，持續(xù)了100年，比夏朝的建立還早1000年。
多處龍山文明遺址發(fā)現(xiàn)了大量玉器、陶器、建筑和城市遺址。因其地理位置和文物風格，與夏朝有著一定的聯(lián)系。考古學家傾向于認為它是夏朝的前身。
但中國歷史文獻中并沒有對此的記載，只有一些模糊的記載，并不能完全證實。
此外，中國還發(fā)現(xiàn)了敦口文明、仰韶文明、河姆渡文明、紅山文明、馬家窯文明等許多更早時期的古文明遺跡。迄今為止發(fā)現(xiàn)的最早的城市遺址可以追溯到大約8000年前。
然而，中國歷史文獻中并沒有這些文明及其城市的記載。因此，它們不被中國史學界視為“正史”，而是統(tǒng)一歸類為：“史前文明”
There are multiple sites that exist in today's Shandong and Henan provinces of China.
It appeared 5,000 years ago and lasted for 100 years, 1,000 years earlier than the establishment of the xia Dynasty.
A lage number of jades, pottery, architectural and urban ruins have been discovered in multiple sites of the Longshan Civilization. Because of its location and cultural relic style, it has a certain connection with the xia Dynasty. Archaeologists tend to believe that it is the predecessor of the xia Dynasty.
However, there is no record of it in Chinese historical documents, only some vague records, and they cannot be completely confirmed.
In addition, China has also discovered the remains of many ancient civilizations that date back to earlier times, such as the DwenkouCivilization, Yangshao Civilization, Hemudu Civilization, Hongshan Civilization, and Majiayao Civilization. The earliest urban ruins discovered so far date back to about 8,000 years ago.
However, there is no record of these civilizations and their cities in Chinese historical documents. Therefore, they are not regarded as "official history" by Chinese historical circles, but are uniformly classified as: "prehistoric civilization"
3、龍山文明
在今天的中國山東省和河南省存在多個遺址。
它出現(xiàn)于5000年前，持續(xù)了100年，比夏朝的建立還早1000年。
多處龍山文明遺址發(fā)現(xiàn)了大量玉器、陶器、建筑和城市遺址。因其地理位置和文物風格，與夏朝有著一定的聯(lián)系。考古學家傾向于認為它是夏朝的前身。
但中國歷史文獻中并沒有對此的記載，只有一些模糊的記載，并不能完全證實。
此外，中國還發(fā)現(xiàn)了敦口文明、仰韶文明、河姆渡文明、紅山文明、馬家窯文明等許多更早時期的古文明遺跡。迄今為止發(fā)現(xiàn)的最早的城市遺址可以追溯到大約8000年前。
然而，中國歷史文獻中并沒有這些文明及其城市的記載。因此，它們不被中國史學界視為“正史”，而是統(tǒng)一歸類為：“史前文明”
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The Sanxingdui ruins are less than 5 kilometers from where my parents live. Welcome to Sichuan and Chengdu.
三星堆遺址距離我父母住的地方不到5公里。歡迎來到四川、成都。
I don`t understand about the term civilization and culture.
some said that longshan ,liangzhu are culture, and some said are civilization,
what the point that make the difference between them ?
我不明白文明和文化這個詞。
有人說龍山、良渚是文化，有人說是文明，
它們有什么區(qū)別呢？
In fact, in the rigorous field of history in China
Civilization and culture are strictly divided
Civilization is used to refer to those higher-level social sites that have no historical records.
Culture is used to refer to lower-level social sites
The difference between them lies in three criteria:
1、The emergence of cities
2、The emergence of wealth differentiation
3、The emergence of kingship
Those that meet the three conditions at the same time are called civilization; those that cannot be fully satisfied are called culture.
事實上，在中國嚴謹?shù)臍v史領域
文明與文化是嚴格劃分的
文明用來指那些沒有歷史記錄的高級社會場所。
文化用于指代較低級別的社會場所
它們的區(qū)別在于三個標準：
1、城市的出現(xiàn)
2、階級分化的出現(xiàn)
3、王權的出現(xiàn)
同時滿足這三個條件的，稱為文明；那些不能完全滿足的叫做文化。
ooh now I understand, thank you so much
哦現(xiàn)在我明白了，非常感謝
Just different words/translation. Tribal culture more correct. Civilization ok too as they were large urban dwellings.
只是不同的詞/翻譯。部落文化更準確。文明也很好，因為它們有大型城市和住宅。
thank you
謝謝你
Any grouping of people will have a culture of some sort, even the caveman had a culture. In simple terms a civilisation comes about when the populace is able to produce surplus food on farms, to enable other people to focus on other stuff like crafts, trades, buildings, study etc - so towns and cities were created - as not everyone needed to focus on agriculture
任何人群都會有某種文化，甚至穴居人也有文化。簡單來說，當民眾能夠在農場生產(chǎn)剩余食物，讓其他人能夠專注于手工藝、貿易、建筑、學習等其他事情時，文明就會出現(xiàn)——因此城鎮(zhèn)就被創(chuàng)建了——因為不是每個人都需要這樣做專注農業(yè)
Then how come Mahenjo Daro and Harappa in the Indus Valley are considered part of Indian history despite the absence of any written records about them?
那么印度河谷的馬亨佐達羅和哈拉帕為何在沒有任何文字記錄的情況下被認為是印度歷史的一部分呢？
There's no relation between them and period apart is huge. LM
它們之間沒有任何關系，而且時間間隔很大。要笑死我
If they don't do this and treat this issue as harshly as the Chinese do, India will have too little history
如果他們不這么做，而是像中國人那么苛刻的對待這個問題，印度的歷史就太少了
Those guys look pure alien
（三星堆）這些家伙看起來純粹是外星人
Even the xia Dynasty though mentioned has not been proven.
Chinese civilization starts with the Shang, about 3,200 years ago. About the time of the Minoan Civilization.
即使提到的夏朝也沒有得到證實。
中華文明始于商代，距今約3200年。大約是米諾斯文明時期。
Whether it is confirmed or not depends on the criteria you use
If according to China's "Three elements" standard, the xia Dynasty did have problems.
1. There is a need for handed down historical documents to accurately record the time and events.
2. Archaeological discoveries, large cities and architectural sites are required
3. It is necessary to find writings in the ruins and prove "I am the XX civilization"
The problem with the xia Dynasty was that the third lix was missing.
But by this standard, Mediterranean and European history before Rome does not exist. There is no such thing as the Minoan civilization.The history of ancient Greece and ancient Egypt is also impossible to confirm.
是否確認取決于您使用的標準
如果按照中國的“三要素”標準，夏朝確實有問題。
1.需要有傳世歷史文獻來準確記錄時間和事件。
2.需要考古發(fā)現(xiàn)、大城市和建筑遺址
3、需要在廢墟中找到文字，證明“我是XX文明”
夏朝的問題就在于缺少了第三個環(huán)節(jié)。
但按照這個標準，羅馬之前的地中海和歐洲歷史并不存在。米諾斯文明并不存在，古希臘、古埃及的歷史也無法證實。
You were doing well until your last paragraph.
在最后一段之前你都說得很好。
Are there any issues with OP's argument?
Do you think there's some kind of record found in Minoan ruins that proves "My name is Minoan?"
No, not really. The Minoan civilization was also named after a legendary king.
The xia Dynasty is clearly recorded in ancient Chinese historical documents, not only with the name of the country, but also with the names of each king. The credibility of the Minoan civilization was not even as good as that of the xia Dynasty. There is nothing there but ruins. There are some crude symbols, and no one can decipher their meaning.
答主的論述有什么問題嗎？
你認為米諾斯文明的遺址中發(fā)現(xiàn)了某種記錄，證明“我叫米諾斯文明？”
不，并沒有，米諾斯文明也是根據(jù)傳說中一位國王的名字來命名的。
夏朝在中國古代歷史文獻中有明確的記載，不但有國家的名字，甚至有每一位王的名字。米諾斯文明的可信度連夏朝都不如。那里除了遺址，什么都沒有。一些粗糙的符號，也無人能解讀他們的意思。
Not the same. The facts ancient Egyptians and Minoans AND that prehistoric people lived in present-day China are not in dispute. What is unproven is the claimed ‘dynastic’ nature which requires two pieces of physical evidence. The name of the dynasty (xia) and the name of at least one of its kings that matches the lineage passed down. Neither have been found so far. Miracles do happen like the vase they found to definitively date the Shang Dynasty.
不一樣。古埃及人和米諾斯人以及史前人類生活在當今中國的事實是沒有爭議的。尚未得到證實的是所謂的“王朝”性質，這需要兩件物證。王朝名稱（夏）以及至少一位與傳承血統(tǒng)相匹配的國王的名字。到目前為止，兩者都還沒有被發(fā)現(xiàn)。奇跡確實發(fā)生了，就像他們發(fā)現(xiàn)的可以確定為商代的花瓶一樣。
So the above cultures listed by OP were not part of Chinese civilization?
那么答主列出的上述文化不屬于中華文明嗎？
No, in fact judging from the cultural relics found in these sites, they have some connections with the later Shang Dynasty and Zhou Dynasty.
There are many cultural relics that have the same appearance and decoration, or there is an obvious inheritance relationship.
The one on the left is from the Shang Dynasty, and the one on the right is from Sanxingdui
Therefore, there is a high probability that these prehistoric civilizations are also part of the Chinese civilization.
不，其實從這些遺址中發(fā)現(xiàn)的文物來看，它們與后來的商周時期有一定的聯(lián)系。
文物中有不少外觀、紋飾相同，或有明顯傳承關系的文物。
看這個圖，左邊的是商代，右邊的是三星堆的（兩個青銅尊，圖略）
因此，這些史前文明很有可能也是中華文明的一部分。
It has not been proven concretely that the Minoans even were a civilization, 3200 years old even…it might have been a cope fake put out by Greeks and later Romans and European we wuzzers to look equal to China in anyiquity
目前還沒有具體證明米諾斯人是一個文明，甚至有3200年的歷史……這可能是希臘人和后來的羅馬人和歐洲人制造的一個騙局，目的是讓他們在任何方面都與中國平等。
Interesting you make it seems like Chinese can only refer to government approved works (official historical documents)
有趣的是，你讓中國人看起來只能引用政府批準的作品（官方歷史文獻）
Overtime I’ve read many discussions on how far back Chinese civilisation goes. From an accepted archaeological perspective, Chinese civilisation only goes back about 3500 years, 4000 at a push. There may have been older civilisations, but the same could be said about the rest of the ancient world - but we need accepted archaeological proof before this can be claimed. I’m not sure where the OP gets his information from
隨著時間的推移，我已經(jīng)閱讀了許多關于中國文明歷史有多久的討論。從公認的考古學角度來看，中國文明只能追溯到大約3500年前，最多也就是4000年。
可能存在更古老的文明，但對于其他古代世界也是如此——在宣稱之前，我們需要公認的考古證據(jù)。我不確定答主（原帖作者）從哪里獲取他的信息。