以色列人對(duì)德國(guó)人有怨恨嗎？（下）
Do Israelis have a grudge against the German people?
譯文簡(jiǎn)介
我知道在我不得不去德國(guó)的幾次場(chǎng)合中，我常常會(huì)想到我看到的那些老德國(guó)人，那些在納粹時(shí)代活著并且是青少年或更大的人——“戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)期間你們?cè)谧鍪裁茨?？?這種感覺在我遇到或看到的年輕德國(guó)人中是不存在的。
正文翻譯
Michael Davison
I know that on the few occasions I had to be in Germany, I found myself wondering about the older Germans I saw, the ones who were alive and teens or more during the Nazi era—”What were you doing during the war?”
This feeling is absent among the younger Germans I met or saw.
Isn’t it a bit ridiculous to blame an entire current nation today for the deeds of their parents or grandparents? (Not including the neo-Nazis, of course.)
Isn’t this along the same lines as black people in the US hating whites because their great-great-great-grandparents were brought to North America in chains?
How long is it possible to hold a grudge?
我知道在我不得不去德國(guó)的幾次場(chǎng)合中，我常常會(huì)想到我看到的那些老德國(guó)人，那些在納粹時(shí)代活著并且是青少年或更大的人——“戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)期間你們?cè)谧鍪裁茨兀俊?這種感覺在我遇到或看到的年輕德國(guó)人中是不存在的。 責(zé)怪整個(gè)現(xiàn)代國(guó)家的人民因?yàn)樗麄兊母改富蜃娓改傅男袨?，這不是有點(diǎn)荒謬嗎？（當(dāng)然不包括新納粹分子。） 這是否與美國(guó)黑人因?yàn)樗麄兊脑娓改副粠У奖泵罃R置而憎恨白人的情況類似？ 持懷恨之心能夠持續(xù)多久？
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Well stated. I’ve done business in Germany on many occasions, and have always been treated warmly and professionally.
On the other hand, I had a very different experience in Austria, where I felt that prejudice towards Jews and anti-Semitism was still quite prent.
說(shuō)得好。我在德國(guó)做過(guò)很多次生意，總是受到熱情和專業(yè)的對(duì)待。 另一方面，我在奧地利有過(guò)一個(gè)非常不同的經(jīng)歷，我感到那里對(duì)猶太人的偏見和反猶主義仍然相當(dāng)普遍。
As an Israeli citizen married to a non-Jewish German, I would say that openly expressing support for the Nazis’ genocidal deeds against the Jews - is a taboo in Germany. Expressing such views is generally frowned upon in Germany and many Germans will openly disassociate themselves from anything to do with the Nazis. The holocaust is regarded by many Germans as a stain on their country's history.
However, stereotypes associating Jews with money and with greed, and regarding Jews as rapacious money-grabbers who use their influence (especially in the USA) to advance their interests (and that of Israel) to the detriment of others - are not uncommon in Germany. Especially among older Germans.
作為以色列公民，娶了一個(gè)非猶太德國(guó)人的人，我要說(shuō)，在德國(guó)公開表示支持納粹對(duì)猶太人的種族滅絕行為是一個(gè)禁忌。在德國(guó)，表達(dá)這種觀點(diǎn)通常是不受歡迎的，許多德國(guó)人會(huì)公開與任何與納粹有關(guān)的事物劃清界限。大屠殺被許多德國(guó)人視為他們國(guó)家歷史上的污點(diǎn)。 然而，在德國(guó)，將猶太人與金錢和貪婪聯(lián)系起來(lái)，認(rèn)為猶太人是貪婪的錢財(cái)掠奪者，利用他們的影響力（尤其是在美國(guó)）推動(dòng)他們的利益（以及以色列）損害他人的行為，這樣的刻板印象并不少見，特別是在老年德國(guó)人中。
I don’t see it as a grudge against the German people. Certainly Germans who were very young in the 1940s could not have shouldered any blame for either active or apathetic involvement in the Holocaust. Germans and collaborating Europeans who participated in the persecutions and murder of Jews will likely be in their 90s today. Not many survive. You can see that some countries continue to pursue charges against those who are still alive, despite their advanced age. Millions of them were never brought to justice, as their leaders were in the Nuremberg and other venues.
我不認(rèn)為這是對(duì)德國(guó)人民的怨恨。肯定在1940年代很年輕的德國(guó)人無(wú)法對(duì)大屠殺中的積極或漠視參與承擔(dān)任何責(zé)任。今天活著并參與對(duì)猶太人的迫害和謀殺的德國(guó)人和合作的歐洲人現(xiàn)在可能已經(jīng)90多歲了。許多人已經(jīng)不在人世。你可以看到一些國(guó)家繼續(xù)追究那些仍然活著的人的責(zé)任，盡管他們年事已高。數(shù)百萬(wàn)人從未受到制裁，因?yàn)樗麄兊念I(lǐng)導(dǎo)人在紐倫堡和其他地方接受審判。
另一方面，德國(guó)試圖在一定程度上償還其對(duì)猶太人民的債務(wù)，對(duì)大屠殺的特定幸存者進(jìn)行賠償，以及對(duì)以色列的貿(mào)易和經(jīng)濟(jì)、政治支持。根據(jù)索賠會(huì)議的說(shuō)法，自1952年以來(lái)的談判導(dǎo)致德國(guó)政府向80多萬(wàn)幸存者支付了700多億美元的大屠殺賠款。猶太人失去了家人，整個(gè)城市和整個(gè)文明，這是無(wú)法報(bào)答的。今天世界上的猶太人可能不是1400萬(wàn)，而是5000萬(wàn)或更多。像許多流散在外的猶太人一樣，我一生都在對(duì)納粹及其支持者感到憤怒。向前推進(jìn)的最佳方式是防止這種種族滅絕和對(duì)其他人的迫害再次發(fā)生，包括當(dāng)今世界上的猶太人、穆斯林、WWE和有色人種。
50 million Jews today is doubtful. There were some 15 million Jews in 1950 around the world and 9 million in Europe. 6 million perished. Orthodox Jews have a high birth rate as a method to maintain their race. But if Holocaust didn't happen, I doubt even Orthodox Jews intermingled in Europe would have such high birth rate. And European population is on a decline. Maybe some 4 million more Jews, but 34 million more Jews. No chance.
今天有5千萬(wàn)猶太人是可疑的。1950年，全球約有1500萬(wàn)猶太人，歐洲有900萬(wàn)。600萬(wàn)人喪生。正統(tǒng)猶太人以保持自己種族的方式具有較高的出生率。但如果大屠殺沒(méi)有發(fā)生，我懷疑即使是在歐洲混居的正統(tǒng)猶太人也不會(huì)有如此高的出生率。而歐洲人口正在下降。也許會(huì)多出400萬(wàn)猶太人，但是多出3400萬(wàn)猶太人的可能性幾乎為零。
Germans as individuals are wonderful but as a crowd they are Germans. Go to a soccer game and see. But don’t go by me, I’m still pissed at the Romans for knocking down the Temple.
德國(guó)人作為個(gè)體是很好的，但作為群體他們就是德國(guó)人。去看一場(chǎng)足球比賽，你就會(huì)明白。但別聽我的，我仍然對(duì)羅馬人毀壞圣殿感到憤怒。
Historical hatred is just a red herring to camouflage one's own hatred and racist supremist ideals and beliefs.There are prejudicial and bias people in every camp, be it on racial,religious,ethnic or racial grounds! It's shameful and regrettable the media today focuses solely on the 1 percent of the bad apples and actors of the camps I've mentioned, through outright lies and propaganda,followed by each camp making sweeping indictments against every other camp as if all are duplicit
歷史仇恨只是為了掩蓋自己的仇恨和種族至上主義思想和信念。每個(gè)陣營(yíng)都有偏見和偏見的人，無(wú)論是基于種族、宗教、民族還是種族等方面！今天的媒體集中關(guān)注這些陣營(yíng)中的1%個(gè)別不良分子和行為者，通過(guò)徹頭徹尾的謊言和宣傳，隨后每個(gè)陣營(yíng)都對(duì)其他每個(gè)陣營(yíng)進(jìn)行全面控告，仿佛所有人都是虛偽的。
Michael, at age 85, I am presumably one of those “old Germans” whose past you are wondering about. Well, when I was seven, my family home in Leipzig was bombed out and I had to guide my father, who was blinded in combat in WW I, past puddles of burning phosphor on the street. At 8, I heard my grandmother bawl out two Gestapo officers who showed up in her apartment accusing her of having made seditious remarks in her air raid shelter. “We are monarchists and Christians,“ she told them. ?To us, the English, Americans, Jews and Russians are God‘s children. If that‘s seditious, then you must arrest and try me.“ They never came back.
邁克爾，我85歲了，我可能是你所好奇的那些“老德國(guó)人”之一。嗯，當(dāng)我7歲時(shí)，我家在萊比錫被炸毀，我不得不引導(dǎo)我在第一次世界大戰(zhàn)中失明的父親穿過(guò)街道上燃燒的磷光。8歲時(shí)，我聽到我奶奶在家里大吼兩名蓋世太保官兵，他們闖進(jìn)她的公寓指控她在防空洞里發(fā)表了煽動(dòng)性言論。“我們是君主主義者和基督徒，”她告訴他們。“對(duì)我們來(lái)說(shuō)，英國(guó)人、美國(guó)人、猶太人和俄羅斯人都是上帝的孩子。如果這是煽動(dòng)性的話，那么你們必須逮捕并審判我?！彼麄?cè)僖矝](méi)有回來(lái)。
我奶奶對(duì)他們來(lái)說(shuō)太勇敢了。我還可以告訴你，當(dāng)年我是如何得知奧斯維辛的，以及我是如何遵循西德第一任總統(tǒng)泰奧多·豪斯的建議，即所有德國(guó)人都必須為以他們的名義犯下的罪行感到集體羞恥。我們感到羞恥，而且仍然感到羞恥，但并不感到有罪，因?yàn)榘藲q的孩子們不應(yīng)對(duì)大屠殺負(fù)責(zé)。我也知道我父親在1933年投票給了哪個(gè)黨：國(guó)民人民黨（DVP）。我母親那時(shí)還太年輕，如果她還活著，現(xiàn)在應(yīng)該已經(jīng)107歲了。我的奶奶是薩克森王室的狂熱擁護(hù)者，韋廷家族，歐洲最古老的王室之一。英國(guó)女王是韋廷家族的后裔。
I’m an American Jew who first visited Germany in 1993, only 48 years after the end of the war. I definitely felt odd seeing anyone there aged 60 and up, wondering if they’d been partially responsible for killing many of my relatives, or, even if not, if they’d turned a blind eye to the abuse and torment of German Jews in the 1930s. I’m thinking now anyone left there who was a teen or older then would be in their 90’s or older. Not really an issue now.
我是一名美國(guó)猶太人，1993年首次訪問(wèn)德國(guó)，距離戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)結(jié)束僅48年?？吹?0歲以上的任何人都會(huì)感到奇怪，想知道他們是否部分地對(duì)殺害我的許多親戚負(fù)有責(zé)任，或者即使沒(méi)有，是否他們?cè)谏鲜兰o(jì)30年代對(duì)德國(guó)猶太人的虐待和折磨視而不見。我現(xiàn)在想，任何當(dāng)時(shí)年齡為十幾歲或更大的人現(xiàn)在都應(yīng)該是90歲以上?，F(xiàn)在不是問(wèn)題了。
I was with you until the last paragraph. I do not see too many African-Americans holding a grudge for what happened hundreds of years ago. Their grievances are overwhelmingly about what is happening today, including an unwillingness to acknowledge the continuum of history from 1619 to the present, not just slavery but Jim Crow, including segregation and lynchings, not just Jim Crow, but recent attempts to suppress the right to vote , alongside a continued inability to live the same as other citizens of European ancestry. Ahmad Arbery was hunted and murdered, and authorities saw video yet failed to take action until there was a public outcry and demonstrations. That is a grudge from yesterday not 400 years ago.
我同意你直到最后一段。我并沒(méi)有看到太多非裔美國(guó)人因數(shù)百年前發(fā)生的事情而心存怨恨。他們的不滿主要是關(guān)于今天發(fā)生的事情，包括不愿承認(rèn)從1619年到現(xiàn)在的歷史連續(xù)性，不僅是奴隸制，還有吉姆·克勞法、種族隔離和私刑，不僅僅是吉姆·克勞法，還有最近試圖壓制選舉權(quán)，以及持續(xù)無(wú)法與其他歐洲血統(tǒng)的公民同等生活。艾哈邁德·阿伯里被追捕并謀殺，當(dāng)局看到視頻卻直到有公眾強(qiáng)烈抗議和示威才采取行動(dòng)。這是昨天的怨恨，而不是400年前的。
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To this day, when i see an old German. I wonder what they did during the war. Obviously, most Germans who were ten or older by 1945 are mostly dead now. I would say that up to the early 70s, there were many American Jews that would not buy German cars. Havings that, many of the taxis in Israel were German during that period. Germany has been a good ally to Israel for many years and does go out of its way to provide material and financial help to Israel. Ever Jew and every Israeli has their own relationship with Germany and Germans
直到今天，當(dāng)我看到一個(gè)老德國(guó)人時(shí)，我會(huì)想到他們?cè)趹?zhàn)爭(zhēng)中做了什么。顯然，大多數(shù)在1945年前已經(jīng)十歲或更大的德國(guó)人現(xiàn)在大多已經(jīng)去世了。我會(huì)說(shuō)，直到70年代初，有許多美國(guó)猶太人不會(huì)購(gòu)買德國(guó)車。在那個(gè)時(shí)期，以色列許多出租車都是德國(guó)制造的。德國(guó)多年來(lái)一直是以色列的好盟友，并且竭盡全力向以色列提供物質(zhì)和財(cái)政幫助。每個(gè)猶太人和以色列人與德國(guó)人有著自己的關(guān)系。
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Sam, my father-in-law, was a holocaust survivor, liberated from Auschwitz by the allies in January 1945. He ended up in Southern California where he owned a small chain of electronic stores. He always drove a german car. When I asked him why did he buy german after all they did to him and his family, he said proudly poking his thumb into his chest, “They work for me now!”
Sam，我的岳父是一位大屠殺幸存者，在1945年1月被盟軍從奧斯維辛集中營(yíng)解救出來(lái)。他最終定居在加利福尼亞南部，在那里擁有一家小型電子商店連鎖店。他總是開德國(guó)車。有一次我問(wèn)他為什么在他和他的家人遭受的一切后還購(gòu)買德國(guó)車，他驕傲地指著自己的胸膛說(shuō)：“現(xiàn)在他們?yōu)槲夜ぷ?！?/b>
My Jewish Dad was raised by his adopted German American step father and that is why this Anglo Irish Jewish person has a German last name. To paint a whole group of people with hatred would be the same as what the NAZIS did to the Jews. Jews should be better than that and see people as individuals. I don't hate Germans or I would be hating my relatives who raised my dad with much love and care.
我的猶太父親是由他的美國(guó)德國(guó)籍繼父撫養(yǎng)長(zhǎng)大的，這就是為什么這個(gè)英國(guó)愛爾蘭猶太人有一個(gè)德國(guó)姓氏的原因。對(duì)整個(gè)群體懷有仇恨將會(huì)與納粹對(duì)待猶太人的方式相同。猶太人應(yīng)該比這更好，應(yīng)該把人看作個(gè)體。我不憎恨德國(guó)人，否則我會(huì)在憎恨養(yǎng)育我父親的家人。
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I disagree. 1945 Germany should have been bombed to the Stone Age. It wasn’t like only the German leadership was responsible . The German people were complicit with the war crimes they committed . What they did couldn’t have been done without full partnership of the people
我不同意。1945年的德國(guó)應(yīng)該被炸到石器時(shí)代。不僅僅是德國(guó)領(lǐng)導(dǎo)層負(fù)有責(zé)任，德國(guó)人民也參與了他們所犯下的戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)罪行。如果沒(méi)有人民的全力合作，那些事情是無(wú)法完成的。
I used to go shooting with an old Jewish guy who fled the Nazis as a child. He drove a Mercedes and I did raise this with him once. He said he avoided German cars until the wartime generation was no longer building them. He had no issue with younger generations so was quite happy to buy car they had made.
I guess it was his way of dealing with things and not a wholly irrational reasoning.
我曾經(jīng)和一個(gè)逃離納粹的猶太老人一起去射擊。他開的是一輛梅賽德斯奔馳，我曾經(jīng)問(wèn)過(guò)他這個(gè)問(wèn)題。他說(shuō)他一直避免購(gòu)買德國(guó)車，直到戰(zhàn)時(shí)一代人不再制造它們。他對(duì)年輕一代沒(méi)有問(wèn)題，所以很高興購(gòu)買他們制造的汽車。我想這是他處理事情的方式，而不是完全不理性的推理。
My father and uncles were all in the Kriegsmarine or Wehrmacht in WW2. I was born in 1947 and in conversations with my parents about the Holocaust they were shocked and ashamed when after the end of the war they learned about death camps and the GENO.... committed. Years later in 1964 after migrating to Australia I met a Jewish girl however, after a brief introduction to her parents I was asked to leave and not return as I was German. Thankfully those days are behind us and the first member of our family now lives in Netanya in Israel married to a Jewish man. We have also supported Jewish charitable causes, purchased Israeli made goods and support Israel’s right to exist as a sovereign nation.
我的父親和叔叔們都在第二次世界大戰(zhàn)中服役于德國(guó)海軍或國(guó)防軍。我出生于1947年，在與我的父母談?wù)摯笸罋r(shí)，他們?cè)趹?zhàn)爭(zhēng)結(jié)束后得知集中營(yíng)和種族滅絕罪行時(shí)感到震驚和羞愧。多年后的1964年，我移民到澳大利亞后遇到了一個(gè)猶太女孩，然而，在與她父母簡(jiǎn)短見面后，我被要求離開并且不要再回去，因?yàn)槲沂堑聡?guó)人。幸運(yùn)的是，那些日子已經(jīng)過(guò)去了，我們家族的第一位成員現(xiàn)在住在以色列的內(nèi)坦亞，嫁給了一個(gè)猶太人。我們也支持猶太慈善事業(yè)，購(gòu)買以色列商品，并支持以色列作為一個(gè)主權(quán)國(guó)家存在的權(quán)利。
I know older Israelis who were alive during the Holocaust who do. But I can say categorically that the vast majority of younger Israelis do not. Germany has been a good friend to Israel for decades, and many Israelis go to Berlin for study or to live for a while.
我認(rèn)識(shí)一些在大屠殺期間還活著的以色列人確實(shí)會(huì)。但我可以明確地說(shuō)，絕大多數(shù)年輕以色列人并不會(huì)。德國(guó)幾十年來(lái)一直是以色列的好朋友，許多以色列人去柏林學(xué)習(xí)或生活一段時(shí)間。
It’s a wide spectrum, imo.
There are still Israelis alive, not all of them old age pensioners, who would not own a German-made vehicle, nor visit Germany.
There are still Israelis alive, not all of them old age pensioners, who abhor Wagner being played in Israel.
And there are many, lots of Israelis, some more knowledgeable than others, who are mostly ‘a(chǎn)t peace’ with today’s Germany and most German people.
這是一個(gè)廣泛的范圍，依我看。 仍然有以色列人活著，不都是老年養(yǎng)老金領(lǐng)取者，他們不會(huì)擁有德國(guó)制造的汽車，也不會(huì)訪問(wèn)德國(guó)。 仍然有以色列人活著，不都是老年養(yǎng)老金領(lǐng)取者，他們?cè)鲪涸谝陨胁シ磐吒窦{的行為。 還有許多以色列人，一些比其他人更有知識(shí)，他們大多數(shù)對(duì)今天的德國(guó)和大多數(shù)德國(guó)人都“和平相處”。
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As a German living in Israel I can say some do, but the majority does not.
I came to the country because I LOVE LOVE Israeli culture, food, music, everything. When Israelis know you love their country and you are open-minded to talk to Israelis, study Hebrew, learn about Judaism and let them know that you are interested in a friendship, Israelis are the first people to invite you to their home and yes, also to Shabbat diners or take you with to the Synagogue.
Well, to be honest, Israelis are one of the kindest people, very direct, they dont like when you feel ashamed about yourself, dont hide behind someone you are not, be yourself. The people in Israel will notice when you are not yourself and that is way worse than “being German”. I came to Israel and felt ashamed to be German, but Israelis taught be to be shamelessly myself.
作為居住在以色列的德國(guó)人，我可以說(shuō)有些人會(huì)，但大多數(shù)人不會(huì)。 我來(lái)到這個(gè)國(guó)家是因?yàn)槲覠釔垡陨械奈幕?、食物、音?lè)等一切。當(dāng)以色列人知道你熱愛他們的國(guó)家，你樂(lè)意與以色列人交談，學(xué)習(xí)希伯來(lái)語(yǔ)，了解猶太教，并讓他們知道你對(duì)建立友誼感興趣時(shí)，以色列人是第一個(gè)邀請(qǐng)你來(lái)家里的人，甚至邀請(qǐng)你參加安息日晚餐或帶你去猶太教堂。說(shuō)實(shí)話，以色列人是最善良的人，非常直接，他們不喜歡你感到羞恥，不要隱藏自己，做自己。以色列人會(huì)注意到當(dāng)你不是真實(shí)的自己時(shí)，這比“德國(guó)人”更糟糕。我來(lái)到以色列感到羞恥是因?yàn)槲沂堑聡?guó)人，但以色列人教會(huì)我毫不羞恥地做自己
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當(dāng)然，我來(lái)以色列的時(shí)候就知道，并非每個(gè)人都會(huì)喜歡我，也不是每個(gè)人都能原諒德國(guó)人，有些人受到了如此嚴(yán)重的創(chuàng)傷，他們永遠(yuǎn)也不會(huì)和德國(guó)人交談，我完全可以理解。大屠殺的恐怖如此悲劇，我仍然無(wú)法理解，人們?cè)趺纯赡軐?duì)其他人做出這樣的事情。我的文化的丑陋一直在困擾著我，這讓我更加意識(shí)到，與受到傷害的人和文化進(jìn)行交流是彼此和解的最好方式，相互給予幫助。
真正的生活在那里，自2002年以來(lái)我與一個(gè)以色列人結(jié)婚。我現(xiàn)在也正在轉(zhuǎn)變成猶太教。我建議每個(gè)德國(guó)人去以色列親自了解。生活從來(lái)不是非黑即白，有些人會(huì)憎恨你，有些人不會(huì)。只要做自己，并對(duì)以色列文化表示尊重，你就不會(huì)遇到任何問(wèn)題。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請(qǐng)注明出處
It’s complicated, but mostly Israelis have a positive view of modern German people. Germany as a country has been very supportive of Israel, both politically and materially - being a main weapon development partner (the Merkava MBT is mostly built in Germany), paying massive amounts of reparations for the country and also paying pensions for surviving Jews who worked in Nazi occupied Europe (as slave labor!). Kind of crazy that they kept such meticulous records of their slave laborers they were able to do that, I would imagine that is the only time in history that happened. German engineering is also widely celebrated as high quality, and it is quite a marketing tool to have a “Made in Germany” sticker.
這很復(fù)雜，但大多數(shù)以色列人對(duì)現(xiàn)代德國(guó)人持積極態(tài)度。作為一個(gè)國(guó)家，德國(guó)對(duì)以色列在政治和物質(zhì)上都非常支持，是主要的武器開發(fā)伙伴（梅卡瓦主戰(zhàn)坦克主要在德國(guó)制造），為該國(guó)支付了巨額賠償金，還為在納粹占領(lǐng)歐洲工作的猶太幸存者支付養(yǎng)老金（作為奴隸勞工！）。德國(guó)工程技術(shù)也被廣泛認(rèn)為是高質(zhì)量的，擁有“德國(guó)制造”標(biāo)簽是一種非常好的營(yíng)銷手段。