以色列人對德國人有怨恨嗎？（下）
Do Israelis have a grudge against the German people?
譯文簡介
我知道在我不得不去德國的幾次場合中，我常常會想到我看到的那些老德國人，那些在納粹時代活著并且是青少年或更大的人——“戰(zhàn)爭期間你們在做什么呢？” 這種感覺在我遇到或看到的年輕德國人中是不存在的。
正文翻譯
Michael Davison
I know that on the few occasions I had to be in Germany, I found myself wondering about the older Germans I saw, the ones who were alive and teens or more during the Nazi era—”What were you doing during the war?”
This feeling is absent among the younger Germans I met or saw.
Isn’t it a bit ridiculous to blame an entire current nation today for the deeds of their parents or grandparents? (Not including the neo-Nazis, of course.)
Isn’t this along the same lines as black people in the US hating whites because their great-great-great-grandparents were brought to North America in chains?
How long is it possible to hold a grudge?
我知道在我不得不去德國的幾次場合中，我常常會想到我看到的那些老德國人，那些在納粹時代活著并且是青少年或更大的人——“戰(zhàn)爭期間你們在做什么呢？” 這種感覺在我遇到或看到的年輕德國人中是不存在的。 責怪整個現(xiàn)代國家的人民因為他們的父母或祖父母的行為，這不是有點荒謬嗎？（當然不包括新納粹分子。） 這是否與美國黑人因為他們的曾曾祖父母被帶到北美擱置而憎恨白人的情況類似？ 持懷恨之心能夠持續(xù)多久？
評論翻譯
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Well stated. I’ve done business in Germany on many occasions, and have always been treated warmly and professionally.
On the other hand, I had a very different experience in Austria, where I felt that prejudice towards Jews and anti-Semitism was still quite prent.
說得好。我在德國做過很多次生意，總是受到熱情和專業(yè)的對待。 另一方面，我在奧地利有過一個非常不同的經(jīng)歷，我感到那里對猶太人的偏見和反猶主義仍然相當普遍。
As an Israeli citizen married to a non-Jewish German, I would say that openly expressing support for the Nazis’ genocidal deeds against the Jews - is a taboo in Germany. Expressing such views is generally frowned upon in Germany and many Germans will openly disassociate themselves from anything to do with the Nazis. The holocaust is regarded by many Germans as a stain on their country's history.
However, stereotypes associating Jews with money and with greed, and regarding Jews as rapacious money-grabbers who use their influence (especially in the USA) to advance their interests (and that of Israel) to the detriment of others - are not uncommon in Germany. Especially among older Germans.
作為以色列公民，娶了一個非猶太德國人的人，我要說，在德國公開表示支持納粹對猶太人的種族滅絕行為是一個禁忌。在德國，表達這種觀點通常是不受歡迎的，許多德國人會公開與任何與納粹有關的事物劃清界限。大屠殺被許多德國人視為他們國家歷史上的污點。 然而，在德國，將猶太人與金錢和貪婪聯(lián)系起來，認為猶太人是貪婪的錢財掠奪者，利用他們的影響力（尤其是在美國）推動他們的利益（以及以色列）損害他人的行為，這樣的刻板印象并不少見，特別是在老年德國人中。
I don’t see it as a grudge against the German people. Certainly Germans who were very young in the 1940s could not have shouldered any blame for either active or apathetic involvement in the Holocaust. Germans and collaborating Europeans who participated in the persecutions and murder of Jews will likely be in their 90s today. Not many survive. You can see that some countries continue to pursue charges against those who are still alive, despite their advanced age. Millions of them were never brought to justice, as their leaders were in the Nuremberg and other venues.
我不認為這是對德國人民的怨恨?？隙ㄔ?940年代很年輕的德國人無法對大屠殺中的積極或漠視參與承擔任何責任。今天活著并參與對猶太人的迫害和謀殺的德國人和合作的歐洲人現(xiàn)在可能已經(jīng)90多歲了。許多人已經(jīng)不在人世。你可以看到一些國家繼續(xù)追究那些仍然活著的人的責任，盡管他們年事已高。數(shù)百萬人從未受到制裁，因為他們的領導人在紐倫堡和其他地方接受審判。
另一方面，德國試圖在一定程度上償還其對猶太人民的債務，對大屠殺的特定幸存者進行賠償，以及對以色列的貿(mào)易和經(jīng)濟、政治支持。根據(jù)索賠會議的說法，自1952年以來的談判導致德國政府向80多萬幸存者支付了700多億美元的大屠殺賠款。猶太人失去了家人，整個城市和整個文明，這是無法報答的。今天世界上的猶太人可能不是1400萬，而是5000萬或更多。像許多流散在外的猶太人一樣，我一生都在對納粹及其支持者感到憤怒。向前推進的最佳方式是防止這種種族滅絕和對其他人的迫害再次發(fā)生，包括當今世界上的猶太人、穆斯林、WWE和有色人種。
50 million Jews today is doubtful. There were some 15 million Jews in 1950 around the world and 9 million in Europe. 6 million perished. Orthodox Jews have a high birth rate as a method to maintain their race. But if Holocaust didn't happen, I doubt even Orthodox Jews intermingled in Europe would have such high birth rate. And European population is on a decline. Maybe some 4 million more Jews, but 34 million more Jews. No chance.
今天有5千萬猶太人是可疑的。1950年，全球約有1500萬猶太人，歐洲有900萬。600萬人喪生。正統(tǒng)猶太人以保持自己種族的方式具有較高的出生率。但如果大屠殺沒有發(fā)生，我懷疑即使是在歐洲混居的正統(tǒng)猶太人也不會有如此高的出生率。而歐洲人口正在下降。也許會多出400萬猶太人，但是多出3400萬猶太人的可能性幾乎為零。
Germans as individuals are wonderful but as a crowd they are Germans. Go to a soccer game and see. But don’t go by me, I’m still pissed at the Romans for knocking down the Temple.
德國人作為個體是很好的，但作為群體他們就是德國人。去看一場足球比賽，你就會明白。但別聽我的，我仍然對羅馬人毀壞圣殿感到憤怒。
Historical hatred is just a red herring to camouflage one's own hatred and racist supremist ideals and beliefs.There are prejudicial and bias people in every camp, be it on racial,religious,ethnic or racial grounds! It's shameful and regrettable the media today focuses solely on the 1 percent of the bad apples and actors of the camps I've mentioned, through outright lies and propaganda,followed by each camp making sweeping indictments against every other camp as if all are duplicit
歷史仇恨只是為了掩蓋自己的仇恨和種族至上主義思想和信念。每個陣營都有偏見和偏見的人，無論是基于種族、宗教、民族還是種族等方面！今天的媒體集中關注這些陣營中的1%個別不良分子和行為者，通過徹頭徹尾的謊言和宣傳，隨后每個陣營都對其他每個陣營進行全面控告，仿佛所有人都是虛偽的。
Michael, at age 85, I am presumably one of those “old Germans” whose past you are wondering about. Well, when I was seven, my family home in Leipzig was bombed out and I had to guide my father, who was blinded in combat in WW I, past puddles of burning phosphor on the street. At 8, I heard my grandmother bawl out two Gestapo officers who showed up in her apartment accusing her of having made seditious remarks in her air raid shelter. “We are monarchists and Christians,“ she told them. ?To us, the English, Americans, Jews and Russians are God‘s children. If that‘s seditious, then you must arrest and try me.“ They never came back.
邁克爾，我85歲了，我可能是你所好奇的那些“老德國人”之一。嗯，當我7歲時，我家在萊比錫被炸毀，我不得不引導我在第一次世界大戰(zhàn)中失明的父親穿過街道上燃燒的磷光。8歲時，我聽到我奶奶在家里大吼兩名蓋世太保官兵，他們闖進她的公寓指控她在防空洞里發(fā)表了煽動性言論?！拔覀兪蔷髦髁x者和基督徒，”她告訴他們?！皩ξ覀儊碚f，英國人、美國人、猶太人和俄羅斯人都是上帝的孩子。如果這是煽動性的話，那么你們必須逮捕并審判我?！彼麄冊僖矝]有回來。
我奶奶對他們來說太勇敢了。我還可以告訴你，當年我是如何得知奧斯維辛的，以及我是如何遵循西德第一任總統(tǒng)泰奧多·豪斯的建議，即所有德國人都必須為以他們的名義犯下的罪行感到集體羞恥。我們感到羞恥，而且仍然感到羞恥，但并不感到有罪，因為八歲的孩子們不應對大屠殺負責。我也知道我父親在1933年投票給了哪個黨：國民人民黨（DVP）。我母親那時還太年輕，如果她還活著，現(xiàn)在應該已經(jīng)107歲了。我的奶奶是薩克森王室的狂熱擁護者，韋廷家族，歐洲最古老的王室之一。英國女王是韋廷家族的后裔。
I’m an American Jew who first visited Germany in 1993, only 48 years after the end of the war. I definitely felt odd seeing anyone there aged 60 and up, wondering if they’d been partially responsible for killing many of my relatives, or, even if not, if they’d turned a blind eye to the abuse and torment of German Jews in the 1930s. I’m thinking now anyone left there who was a teen or older then would be in their 90’s or older. Not really an issue now.
我是一名美國猶太人，1993年首次訪問德國，距離戰(zhàn)爭結(jié)束僅48年?？吹?0歲以上的任何人都會感到奇怪，想知道他們是否部分地對殺害我的許多親戚負有責任，或者即使沒有，是否他們在上世紀30年代對德國猶太人的虐待和折磨視而不見。我現(xiàn)在想，任何當時年齡為十幾歲或更大的人現(xiàn)在都應該是90歲以上。現(xiàn)在不是問題了。
I was with you until the last paragraph. I do not see too many African-Americans holding a grudge for what happened hundreds of years ago. Their grievances are overwhelmingly about what is happening today, including an unwillingness to acknowledge the continuum of history from 1619 to the present, not just slavery but Jim Crow, including segregation and lynchings, not just Jim Crow, but recent attempts to suppress the right to vote , alongside a continued inability to live the same as other citizens of European ancestry. Ahmad Arbery was hunted and murdered, and authorities saw video yet failed to take action until there was a public outcry and demonstrations. That is a grudge from yesterday not 400 years ago.
我同意你直到最后一段。我并沒有看到太多非裔美國人因數(shù)百年前發(fā)生的事情而心存怨恨。他們的不滿主要是關于今天發(fā)生的事情，包括不愿承認從1619年到現(xiàn)在的歷史連續(xù)性，不僅是奴隸制，還有吉姆·克勞法、種族隔離和私刑，不僅僅是吉姆·克勞法，還有最近試圖壓制選舉權(quán)，以及持續(xù)無法與其他歐洲血統(tǒng)的公民同等生活。艾哈邁德·阿伯里被追捕并謀殺，當局看到視頻卻直到有公眾強烈抗議和示威才采取行動。這是昨天的怨恨，而不是400年前的。
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To this day, when i see an old German. I wonder what they did during the war. Obviously, most Germans who were ten or older by 1945 are mostly dead now. I would say that up to the early 70s, there were many American Jews that would not buy German cars. Havings that, many of the taxis in Israel were German during that period. Germany has been a good ally to Israel for many years and does go out of its way to provide material and financial help to Israel. Ever Jew and every Israeli has their own relationship with Germany and Germans
直到今天，當我看到一個老德國人時，我會想到他們在戰(zhàn)爭中做了什么。顯然，大多數(shù)在1945年前已經(jīng)十歲或更大的德國人現(xiàn)在大多已經(jīng)去世了。我會說，直到70年代初，有許多美國猶太人不會購買德國車。在那個時期，以色列許多出租車都是德國制造的。德國多年來一直是以色列的好盟友，并且竭盡全力向以色列提供物質(zhì)和財政幫助。每個猶太人和以色列人與德國人有著自己的關系。
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Sam, my father-in-law, was a holocaust survivor, liberated from Auschwitz by the allies in January 1945. He ended up in Southern California where he owned a small chain of electronic stores. He always drove a german car. When I asked him why did he buy german after all they did to him and his family, he said proudly poking his thumb into his chest, “They work for me now!”
Sam，我的岳父是一位大屠殺幸存者，在1945年1月被盟軍從奧斯維辛集中營解救出來。他最終定居在加利福尼亞南部，在那里擁有一家小型電子商店連鎖店。他總是開德國車。有一次我問他為什么在他和他的家人遭受的一切后還購買德國車，他驕傲地指著自己的胸膛說：“現(xiàn)在他們?yōu)槲夜ぷ鳎 ?/b>
My Jewish Dad was raised by his adopted German American step father and that is why this Anglo Irish Jewish person has a German last name. To paint a whole group of people with hatred would be the same as what the NAZIS did to the Jews. Jews should be better than that and see people as individuals. I don't hate Germans or I would be hating my relatives who raised my dad with much love and care.
我的猶太父親是由他的美國德國籍繼父撫養(yǎng)長大的，這就是為什么這個英國愛爾蘭猶太人有一個德國姓氏的原因。對整個群體懷有仇恨將會與納粹對待猶太人的方式相同。猶太人應該比這更好，應該把人看作個體。我不憎恨德國人，否則我會在憎恨養(yǎng)育我父親的家人。
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I disagree. 1945 Germany should have been bombed to the Stone Age. It wasn’t like only the German leadership was responsible . The German people were complicit with the war crimes they committed . What they did couldn’t have been done without full partnership of the people
我不同意。1945年的德國應該被炸到石器時代。不僅僅是德國領導層負有責任，德國人民也參與了他們所犯下的戰(zhàn)爭罪行。如果沒有人民的全力合作，那些事情是無法完成的。
I used to go shooting with an old Jewish guy who fled the Nazis as a child. He drove a Mercedes and I did raise this with him once. He said he avoided German cars until the wartime generation was no longer building them. He had no issue with younger generations so was quite happy to buy car they had made.
I guess it was his way of dealing with things and not a wholly irrational reasoning.
我曾經(jīng)和一個逃離納粹的猶太老人一起去射擊。他開的是一輛梅賽德斯奔馳，我曾經(jīng)問過他這個問題。他說他一直避免購買德國車，直到戰(zhàn)時一代人不再制造它們。他對年輕一代沒有問題，所以很高興購買他們制造的汽車。我想這是他處理事情的方式，而不是完全不理性的推理。
My father and uncles were all in the Kriegsmarine or Wehrmacht in WW2. I was born in 1947 and in conversations with my parents about the Holocaust they were shocked and ashamed when after the end of the war they learned about death camps and the GENO.... committed. Years later in 1964 after migrating to Australia I met a Jewish girl however, after a brief introduction to her parents I was asked to leave and not return as I was German. Thankfully those days are behind us and the first member of our family now lives in Netanya in Israel married to a Jewish man. We have also supported Jewish charitable causes, purchased Israeli made goods and support Israel’s right to exist as a sovereign nation.
我的父親和叔叔們都在第二次世界大戰(zhàn)中服役于德國海軍或國防軍。我出生于1947年，在與我的父母談論大屠殺時，他們在戰(zhàn)爭結(jié)束后得知集中營和種族滅絕罪行時感到震驚和羞愧。多年后的1964年，我移民到澳大利亞后遇到了一個猶太女孩，然而，在與她父母簡短見面后，我被要求離開并且不要再回去，因為我是德國人。幸運的是，那些日子已經(jīng)過去了，我們家族的第一位成員現(xiàn)在住在以色列的內(nèi)坦亞，嫁給了一個猶太人。我們也支持猶太慈善事業(yè)，購買以色列商品，并支持以色列作為一個主權(quán)國家存在的權(quán)利。
I know older Israelis who were alive during the Holocaust who do. But I can say categorically that the vast majority of younger Israelis do not. Germany has been a good friend to Israel for decades, and many Israelis go to Berlin for study or to live for a while.
我認識一些在大屠殺期間還活著的以色列人確實會。但我可以明確地說，絕大多數(shù)年輕以色列人并不會。德國幾十年來一直是以色列的好朋友，許多以色列人去柏林學習或生活一段時間。
It’s a wide spectrum, imo.
There are still Israelis alive, not all of them old age pensioners, who would not own a German-made vehicle, nor visit Germany.
There are still Israelis alive, not all of them old age pensioners, who abhor Wagner being played in Israel.
And there are many, lots of Israelis, some more knowledgeable than others, who are mostly ‘a(chǎn)t peace’ with today’s Germany and most German people.
這是一個廣泛的范圍，依我看。 仍然有以色列人活著，不都是老年養(yǎng)老金領取者，他們不會擁有德國制造的汽車，也不會訪問德國。 仍然有以色列人活著，不都是老年養(yǎng)老金領取者，他們憎惡在以色列播放瓦格納的行為。 還有許多以色列人，一些比其他人更有知識，他們大多數(shù)對今天的德國和大多數(shù)德國人都“和平相處”。
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As a German living in Israel I can say some do, but the majority does not.
I came to the country because I LOVE LOVE Israeli culture, food, music, everything. When Israelis know you love their country and you are open-minded to talk to Israelis, study Hebrew, learn about Judaism and let them know that you are interested in a friendship, Israelis are the first people to invite you to their home and yes, also to Shabbat diners or take you with to the Synagogue.
Well, to be honest, Israelis are one of the kindest people, very direct, they dont like when you feel ashamed about yourself, dont hide behind someone you are not, be yourself. The people in Israel will notice when you are not yourself and that is way worse than “being German”. I came to Israel and felt ashamed to be German, but Israelis taught be to be shamelessly myself.
作為居住在以色列的德國人，我可以說有些人會，但大多數(shù)人不會。 我來到這個國家是因為我熱愛以色列的文化、食物、音樂等一切。當以色列人知道你熱愛他們的國家，你樂意與以色列人交談，學習希伯來語，了解猶太教，并讓他們知道你對建立友誼感興趣時，以色列人是第一個邀請你來家里的人，甚至邀請你參加安息日晚餐或帶你去猶太教堂。說實話，以色列人是最善良的人，非常直接，他們不喜歡你感到羞恥，不要隱藏自己，做自己。以色列人會注意到當你不是真實的自己時，這比“德國人”更糟糕。我來到以色列感到羞恥是因為我是德國人，但以色列人教會我毫不羞恥地做自己
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當然，我來以色列的時候就知道，并非每個人都會喜歡我，也不是每個人都能原諒德國人，有些人受到了如此嚴重的創(chuàng)傷，他們永遠也不會和德國人交談，我完全可以理解。大屠殺的恐怖如此悲劇，我仍然無法理解，人們怎么可能對其他人做出這樣的事情。我的文化的丑陋一直在困擾著我，這讓我更加意識到，與受到傷害的人和文化進行交流是彼此和解的最好方式，相互給予幫助。
真正的生活在那里，自2002年以來我與一個以色列人結(jié)婚。我現(xiàn)在也正在轉(zhuǎn)變成猶太教。我建議每個德國人去以色列親自了解。生活從來不是非黑即白，有些人會憎恨你，有些人不會。只要做自己，并對以色列文化表示尊重，你就不會遇到任何問題。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
It’s complicated, but mostly Israelis have a positive view of modern German people. Germany as a country has been very supportive of Israel, both politically and materially - being a main weapon development partner (the Merkava MBT is mostly built in Germany), paying massive amounts of reparations for the country and also paying pensions for surviving Jews who worked in Nazi occupied Europe (as slave labor!). Kind of crazy that they kept such meticulous records of their slave laborers they were able to do that, I would imagine that is the only time in history that happened. German engineering is also widely celebrated as high quality, and it is quite a marketing tool to have a “Made in Germany” sticker.
這很復雜，但大多數(shù)以色列人對現(xiàn)代德國人持積極態(tài)度。作為一個國家，德國對以色列在政治和物質(zhì)上都非常支持，是主要的武器開發(fā)伙伴（梅卡瓦主戰(zhàn)坦克主要在德國制造），為該國支付了巨額賠償金，還為在納粹占領歐洲工作的猶太幸存者支付養(yǎng)老金（作為奴隸勞工?。５聡こ碳夹g(shù)也被廣泛認為是高質(zhì)量的，擁有“德國制造”標簽是一種非常好的營銷手段。