老外提問中國(guó)修建長(zhǎng)城的努力是否值得，評(píng)論區(qū)討論中國(guó)的歷史及長(zhǎng)城的作用
The location (border) of the Great Wall of China. Was it worth the effort?
譯文簡(jiǎn)介
紅迪網(wǎng)老外提問中國(guó)修建長(zhǎng)城的付出是否值得，網(wǎng)友熱烈討論長(zhǎng)城存在的意義
正文翻譯
The location (border) of the Great Wall of China. Was it worth the effort?
老外提問中國(guó)修建長(zhǎng)城的努力是否值得，評(píng)論區(qū)討論中國(guó)的歷史及長(zhǎng)城的作用
老外提問中國(guó)修建長(zhǎng)城的努力是否值得，評(píng)論區(qū)討論中國(guó)的歷史及長(zhǎng)城的作用
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You're judging its utility by today's China borders.
Here's China's map with elevation during the Qin Dynasty, when the wall was built. You can tell it was built in the area where there weren't many mountain ranges.
你是根據(jù)今天中國(guó)的邊界來判斷它的效用的。這是秦朝時(shí)期中國(guó)地圖的海拔圖，長(zhǎng)城就是在那里建造的。你可以看出，它建造在沒有太多山脈的地區(qū)。
（作者：這人說的最后一點(diǎn)就是錯(cuò)誤的）
Not to mention...
What everyone seems to forget is that even in an all out war, a wall this big disrupts supply chains. An invader either has to demolish portions for access points (giving them weak points to defend) or they have to bring supplies to the wall, lift it over, then lift it back down onto another supply chain.
It's there to create a logistic nightmare for large armies and deter them. Any good general knows an army marches on its stomach.
更不用說。。。似乎每個(gè)人都忘記了，即使在全面戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)中，這么大的一堵墻也會(huì)擾亂供應(yīng)鏈。侵略者要么必須拆除部分以獲得進(jìn)入點(diǎn)（給他們留下需要防守的弱點(diǎn)），要么他們必須把物資帶到墻邊，抬起它，然后再把它放下到另一個(gè)供應(yīng)鏈上。它的存在是為了給大軍制造后勤噩夢(mèng)并威懾他們。任何優(yōu)秀的將軍都知道，軍隊(duì)是靠肚子行進(jìn)的。
I think the most important reason was that it was an early warning system that gave the Chinese ability to gather forces and prepare defences before the Mongolian host was able to strike them. It also served as a deterrent against smaller incursions of raiders against which the local garrisons could respond in time or completely deny their ability to launch a raid because they would have to fight and take a section of the wall in order to proceed further or continue without their horses which would significantly lower their area of operation
They basically created a speed bump with an integrated alarm that served its purpose perfectly. Sure the logistical issue was a part of it, but there were also gates and crossings through which an enemy host could pass without a problem once they took it so I doubt that was the main reason why they built the wall
我認(rèn)為最重要的原因是它是一個(gè)早期預(yù)警系統(tǒng)，使中國(guó)人能夠在蒙古軍隊(duì)可以攻擊他們之前集結(jié)力量并準(zhǔn)備防御。它還作為對(duì)小規(guī)模入侵者的威懾，讓當(dāng)?shù)伛v軍可以及時(shí)作出反應(yīng)，或者完全阻止他們發(fā)起襲擊，因?yàn)樗麄儽仨殤?zhàn)斗并奪取長(zhǎng)城的一段才能繼續(xù)前進(jìn)或在沒有馬的情況下繼續(xù)行動(dòng)，這將大大減少他們的行動(dòng)范圍。他們基本上創(chuàng)造了一個(gè)帶有集成報(bào)警的減速帶，它完美地發(fā)揮了它的作用。當(dāng)然，后勤問題也是其中的一部分，但也有大門和通道，敵軍一旦占領(lǐng)了它們就可以毫無問題地通過，所以我懷疑這是不是他們建造長(zhǎng)城的主要原因。
Also a quick note that Mongolia was just the latest northern power that the wall was utilized against. Before Mongolia, countless groups have risen and fallen beyond the wall. Most people just assume it was built for the Mongolians the whole time. The wall was started before Mongolia was even an entity, interestingly enough
還有一個(gè)小提醒，蒙古只是長(zhǎng)城被利用對(duì)抗的最近的一個(gè)北方勢(shì)力。在蒙古之前，無數(shù)的群體在長(zhǎng)城之外崛起和衰落，大多數(shù)人只是認(rèn)為長(zhǎng)城是為蒙古人建造的。有趣的是，長(zhǎng)城是在蒙古甚至成為一個(gè)實(shí)體之前就開始建造的。
For the most part that's the difference between the Old Norse and modern Scandinavians. Mongols are a descended culture and people from the eastern steppe nomads.
在很大程度上，這就是古挪威人和現(xiàn)代斯堪的納維亞人之間的區(qū)別。蒙古人是東方草原游牧民族的后裔文化。
We don't actually know if the xiongnu were ethnically Mongolian, Turkic, Iranian or something else.
實(shí)際上我們不知道匈奴是蒙古族、突厥族、伊朗裔還是別的什么族群
I mean the Turks especially and the Mongols to a great degree united by marriage across many ethnic lines to increase their numbers for military escapades of murderin'.
我的意思是特別是土耳其人、蒙古人在很大程度上通過跨種族的婚姻聯(lián)合起來，以增加他們的人數(shù)，為軍事戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)做準(zhǔn)備
Pretty sure they're Mayan.
我相當(dāng)確定他們是瑪雅人。
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Where are their pyramids?
他們的金字塔在哪里？
Left them at home. Do you really think they travel with those ? Way too heavy
把它們留在家里了，你真的認(rèn)為他們會(huì)帶著那些旅行嗎？太重了。
They were Huns
他們是匈奴人。
Very true. During the wall’s initial construction, the nowadays Mongolian grasssland was settled by an entirely different people. Even when the wall was breached during the Song dynasty by the mongol, it was mostly just Song being likely the weakest dynasty ever militarily wise. The wall truly lower the defensive cost by a lot.
非常正確，在長(zhǎng)城建造初期，現(xiàn)在的蒙古草原是由完全不同的人定居的。即使在宋朝時(shí)期長(zhǎng)城被蒙古人突破，那主要是因?yàn)樗纬赡苁擒娛律献钊醯某?。長(zhǎng)城真的大大降低了防御成本。
Is this from HBO?
這是來自HBO的嗎？（HBO：有線電視網(wǎng)絡(luò)媒體公司）
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Oh shit I just realized I used the same phrasing as GOT lol also Mongolia was not the *latest power. Manchus breached the wall after Mongolia did, and I believe both times were due to collabs with wall guards so neither had to actually attack it to get over (somebody fact check me on this)
哦，天哪，我剛剛意識(shí)到我用了和《權(quán)力的游戲》一樣的措辭，蒙古人并不是最新的勢(shì)力，滿洲人在蒙古人之后也突破了長(zhǎng)城，我相信這兩次都是因?yàn)楹烷L(zhǎng)城得守衛(wèi)的勾結(jié)，所以他們實(shí)際上不需要攻擊就能越過它（有人能核實(shí)一下這個(gè)事實(shí)嗎）。
Mongols tricked the Jin defenders into opening the gates once by baiting them into attacking instead of defending; otherwise the Jin mostly just surrendered without much of a fight. The Ming Great Wall commander, Wu Sangui, defected to the Manchus and opened the gates after the Chinese beheaded his father.
蒙古人曾經(jīng)通過引誘金朝的守軍進(jìn)攻而非防御，讓金朝守軍打開過一次城門；除此以外，金朝大多只是不戰(zhàn)而退。明朝長(zhǎng)城指揮官吳三桂叛逃到了滿洲，在中國(guó)人斬首他的父親后打開了城門。
For those curious about Wu Sangui and want to read further, here's an excellent Reddit thread about him and those turbulent times.
對(duì)于那些對(duì)吳三桂好奇并想進(jìn)一步了解的人來說，這里有一個(gè)關(guān)于他和那些動(dòng)蕩時(shí)期的優(yōu)秀Reddit帖子。（附超鏈接）
Fun fact, one of the last groups that the Great Wall would be used against are the Han Chinese themselves. During the Qing Dynasty, which was founded by the Manchu people, the Great Wall helped to limit the movement of Han Chinese into Manchuria, north of the wall.
有趣的是，長(zhǎng)城被用來對(duì)抗的最后一個(gè)群體之一是漢族人自己。在滿族人建立清朝時(shí)，長(zhǎng)城幫助他們限制了漢族人進(jìn)入長(zhǎng)城以北的滿洲地區(qū)。
Yes mostly were Turkic
是的，大部分是突厥人
And a means of quickly responding to any attack. It’s like a highway system for movement of troops
長(zhǎng)城并且是快速應(yīng)對(duì)任何攻擊的一個(gè)手段。這就像是一個(gè)用于部隊(duì)調(diào)動(dòng)的高速公路系統(tǒng)。
“But there were also gates and crossings through which an enemy host could pass without a problem once they took it”
The gates had higher concentrations of defenders because of this.
Keep in mind that China wasn't totally isolated from the northern tribes. They traded with them and China often took sides in intertribal conflicts up there in order to redirect their energy.
引用：“但也有大門和通道，一旦敵人占領(lǐng)了它們，就可以輕松地通過?！?br /> 所以大門的防御者更為集中。
請(qǐng)記住，中國(guó)并沒有完全與北方民族隔絕。他們互相進(jìn)行貿(mào)易，中國(guó)經(jīng)常在部落間沖突中偏袒一方，以轉(zhuǎn)移他們的精力。
It would also create a pretty annoying barrier for your average horde of nomadic raiders. Most groups wouldn’t wanna risk it, why go through all the trouble when you can raid outside the walls. Most raiders aren’t trying to conquer they’re just looking for easy targets. The walls didn’t really work when forced to face against very motivated enemy with a massive force not your run of the mill border raiders
它只會(huì)對(duì)那些普通的游牧掠奪者群體創(chuàng)造一個(gè)相當(dāng)麻煩的障礙。大多數(shù)群體不想冒險(xiǎn)，當(dāng)你可以在墻外掠奪時(shí)，為什么要自找麻煩。大多數(shù)掠奪者并不是試圖征服，他們只是在尋找容易的目標(biāo)下手。當(dāng)被迫面對(duì)一只非常龐大的部隊(duì)，而不是普通的邊境掠奪者，對(duì)抗這種非常積極的敵人時(shí)，長(zhǎng)城并沒有真正發(fā)揮作用
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The xiongnu more than Mongolia tbh
說實(shí)話，長(zhǎng)城用于防御匈奴人多于防御蒙古人
Also the wall itself, if you’ve ever been to it is like a fortified road for the defenders. It follows the contours of the relatively low mountains it is built on so that soldiers can observe any incoming attack and then more soldiers can quickly come and reinforce the area where any attack might be coming.
還有長(zhǎng)城本身，如果你去過那里的話，它就像一條為防御者加固的道路。它沿著它建造的相對(duì)低矮山脈的輪廓，以便士兵可以觀察任何即將到來的攻擊，然后更多的士兵可以迅速趕到并加強(qiáng)防御任何可能發(fā)生攻擊的區(qū)域。
My understanding, and what they told me when I visited 9 years ago, was that the wall was largely made to disrupt small scale raiding parties from the steppe nomads to the north in what is today Manchuria. It wouldn’t be a huge impediment in an all out war but it allowed relatively quick warning of an advancing raiding party which were rampant in Chinas northern areas.
以我的理解，以及9年前我訪問時(shí)他們告訴我的，長(zhǎng)城主要是為了擾亂來自今天滿洲地區(qū)的草原北部游牧民族的小規(guī)模掠奪團(tuán)體。在全面戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)中它不會(huì)是一個(gè)巨大的障礙，但它可以對(duì)那些掠奪團(tuán)體進(jìn)行相對(duì)快速的警告，這些掠奪團(tuán)體在中國(guó)北部地區(qū)非常猖獗。
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Logistics has less effect in that era than you would think, because the invading side are nomadic tribal cavalry that lives off the land and by pillaging, and don't rely on substantial supply chains.
The real danger is that once they are inside the Wall, they are at huge risk at being cut off from retreat by the much more numerous Chinese defenders, in which the Wall is effective at slowing down or stopping their retreat once the defenders know where they are. The nomadic population sizes can't sustain major casualties and they can't risk being surrounded and destroyed, thus attacks are mainly limited to raids and retreating as fast as possible.
物流在那個(gè)時(shí)代的影響比你想象的要小，因?yàn)槿肭址绞怯文敛柯潋T兵，他們靠土地和掠奪為生，并不依賴大量的供應(yīng)鏈。 真正的危險(xiǎn)是，一旦他們進(jìn)入長(zhǎng)城內(nèi)，他們就有被數(shù)量更多的中國(guó)守軍切斷撤退路線的巨大風(fēng)險(xiǎn)，一旦守軍知道他們?cè)谀睦锖?，長(zhǎng)城就能非常有效的減慢或阻止他們的撤退。游牧人口規(guī)模無法承受重大傷亡，他們不能冒被包圍和殲滅的風(fēng)險(xiǎn)，因此攻擊主要限于快速突襲并在被切斷前盡快撤退。
Shows they were clearly not fond of whatever is in the gobi desert. This literally looks like a fantasy map. I love that.
他們顯然不喜歡戈壁沙漠里的任何東西。這看起來就像是一個(gè)幻想地圖。我喜歡這個(gè)。
Exactly, and the wall was not built from scratch, it was based on walls which were already there.
確切地說，長(zhǎng)城不是從頭開始建造的，而是基于已經(jīng)存在的墻壁。
The original Great Wall (really a series of walls) was built during the Qin but the current wall, which is shown here, is from the Ming.
最初的長(zhǎng)城（實(shí)際上是一系列墻壁）是在秦朝建造的，但這里展示的當(dāng)前的墻是明朝的。
Built in an area with not many mountain ranges? Have you seen the Great Wall?
在沒有很多山脈的地區(qū)建造？你見過長(zhǎng)城嗎？
（作者：回復(fù)第一個(gè)人說長(zhǎng)城是在沒有很多山脈的地方建造的）
Given the proximity to Beijing (knowing that it wasn't the capital at the time in the Qi dynasty) and to the sea, cutting off Mongolia to that access as best as possible was probably a wise move. On the western end, you start getting into arid, mountainous zones that are just...not worth defending, but also probably not worth traversing around either.
考慮到它靠近北京（我知道在秦朝時(shí)它不是首都）和海洋，盡可能切斷了蒙古的通道可能是明智的舉動(dòng)。在西端，你開始進(jìn)入干旱的山區(qū)，這些地區(qū)...不值得防守，但也不值得繞行。
（作者：原文把秦朝說成了齊朝）
The modern wall was built by the Ming. And Beijing has been the capital for the last 700 years.
現(xiàn)代的長(zhǎng)城是明朝建造的。北京在過去700年里一直是首都。
Let bro cook lol(its Qin not Qi if Qi united the 7 kingdoms it would be very different today)
兄弟你在說什么，哈哈（秦不是齊，如果齊統(tǒng)一了七國(guó)，今天會(huì)大不一樣）
Why and how? Sounds interesting!
為什么？這聽起來很有趣！
Over 2400 years ago Qi was one of the seven most powerful kingdoms, even the most powerful one for a long time, during the warring state, which also had the potential to unit China but got itself invaded and nearly destroyed by Qin's diploma. Qin, on the other hand, used violence and harsh law to unit and rule China, which laid the political and cultural foundation of Chinese dynasties in the next 2000 years. Had Qi united China, it's culture and political hierarchy would have shaped China in a very different way.
2400多年前，齊國(guó)是戰(zhàn)國(guó)時(shí)期最強(qiáng)大的七個(gè)國(guó)家之一，甚至是長(zhǎng)期以來最強(qiáng)大的國(guó)家，它也有可能統(tǒng)一中國(guó)，但被秦國(guó)入侵并幾乎摧毀。另一方面，秦國(guó)用暴力和嚴(yán)酷的法律來統(tǒng)一和統(tǒng)治中國(guó)，為中國(guó)王朝在接下來的2000年奠定了政治和文化基礎(chǔ)。如果齊國(guó)統(tǒng)一了中國(guó)，它的文化和政治等級(jí)制度將以一種截然不同的方式塑造中國(guó)。