為什么芬蘭人的文化和語言都不是歐洲的，卻認(rèn)為自己是歐洲人？誰允許他們自稱是歐洲人？
Why do Finnish people consider themselves European when their culture and language are not European? Who gave them the permission to call themselves European?
譯文簡介
芬蘭在1250年被宣告為瑞典的平等部分。直到1809年被俄羅斯征服之前，芬蘭是瑞典的完全整合部分。芬蘭人擁有與瑞典其他公民相同的權(quán)利和義務(wù)。作為俄羅斯統(tǒng)治下的自治大公國，芬蘭幾乎保持了瑞典的機(jī)構(gòu)和法律完好無損。
正文翻譯
Why do Finnish people consider themselves European when their culture and language are not European? Who gave them the permission to call themselves European?
為什么芬蘭人的文化和語言都不是歐洲的，卻認(rèn)為自己是歐洲人？誰允許他們自稱是歐洲人？
評論翻譯
很贊 ( 10 )
收藏
Finland was declared an equal part of Sweden in 1250. It was a fully integrated part of Sweden up until 1809, when the Russians conquered it. The Finns had exactly the same rights and obligations as the rest of the Swedish citizens. As an autonomious Grand Duchy, under Russian rule, Finland could keep the Swedish instituions and law, almost intact.
芬蘭在1250年被宣告為瑞典的平等部分。直到1809年被俄羅斯征服之前，芬蘭是瑞典的完全整合部分。芬蘭人擁有與瑞典其他公民相同的權(quán)利和義務(wù)。作為俄羅斯統(tǒng)治下的自治大公國，芬蘭幾乎保持了瑞典的機(jī)構(gòu)和法律完好無損。
A very large part of present-day Europeans are descendants of people that have moved to Europe from Siberia. That is where the blond mutation came to Europe from, among other things:
在中世紀(jì)，人們前往中歐的大學(xué)學(xué)習(xí)，1640年，芬蘭的第一個(gè)大學(xué)在圖爾庫成立?，F(xiàn)今的歐洲人中有很大一部分是從西伯利亞遷移到歐洲的人后代。包括金發(fā)突變在內(nèi)的許多特征就是從那里傳入歐洲的。
Should you be thinking of the paternal haplogroup N, take a look at the following map:
如果你要考慮父系單倍群N，請查看以下地圖。
The group N left Africa together with the other groups that ended up in Europe: G, I, J, K, R and T. Each one of them just took a different route to the final destination.
“N單倍群與最終到達(dá)歐洲的其他單倍群（G、I、J、K、R和T）一起離開了非洲。它們只是走了不同的路線到達(dá)最終目的地。
That is why the forefathers of the Finns left their genes in Siberia.
The reason why today’s Siberians, with the paternal haplogroup N, look East-Asian is that they carry East-Asian mothernal Mt haplogroups:
這就是為什么芬蘭人的祖先將他們的基因留在了西伯利亞的原因。今天的西伯利亞人擁有N單倍群，因此看起來像東亞人，因?yàn)樗麄償y帶了東亞母系線粒體單倍群。
Admittedly you can find some of the Asian MTDNA in the Sami, but not in Finns proper.
確實(shí)，你可以在薩米人中找到一些亞洲的母系線粒體DNA，但在芬蘭人中卻沒有發(fā)現(xiàn)。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
You can sure find some of the Siberian autosomal dna among Finns and Estonians. Not just sami. But you can find it to a lesser degree also in swedes, Norwegians and Balts. As well in high number in some populations in Russia.
you are partly right. The Sami seems to a large part kept to their own women, while Finns took local women along their journey to Finland.
But, the maternal mitochondrial dna is only a tiny fraction of the dna. If to look at the whole autosomal dna, then it looks like this.
你確實(shí)可以在芬蘭人和愛沙尼亞人中找到一些西伯利亞的常染色體DNA，而不僅僅是薩米人。但你也可以在瑞典人、挪威人和波羅的海人中找到這種 DNA，但程度較輕。
此外，在俄羅斯的一些人群中，西伯利亞的常染色體DNA含量較高。你說對了一部分。薩米人似乎在很大程度上只和自己的女人在一起，而芬蘭人則在前往芬蘭的旅途中帶著當(dāng)?shù)氐呐?。不過，母系線粒體DNA僅是DNA的微小部分。如果查看整個(gè)常染色體DNA，情況就會(huì)像這樣。
The carriers of the paternal haplogroup N in both Europe and Asia found local wifes. The point being that the East-Asians kept to the coastal regions upuntil historical times whereas the forefathers of the present-day Europeans were in inner Asia in prehistorical times…
無論是在歐洲還是亞洲，攜帶N單倍群的男性都找到了當(dāng)?shù)氐钠拮印ｊP(guān)鍵在于，東亞人直到歷史時(shí)期都居住在沿海地區(qū)，而當(dāng)今歐洲人的祖先在史前時(shí)期居住在亞洲內(nèi)陸……
那些留在亞洲的N單倍群男性，只有在其他人已經(jīng)離開前往歐洲之后，才開始與東亞人混合，而東亞人也開始向西擴(kuò)張。這就是為什么他們看起來像是歐洲人和亞洲人的混合，也解釋了為什么在歐洲找不到東亞的線粒體DNA。
唯一的例外是薩米人，他們的這種膚色是從后來沿北極海岸移居歐洲的人那里遺傳下來的，既有金發(fā)碧眼的人，也有略帶亞洲人相貌的人。
Well, with case of maternal DNA among the Sami, it is exactly the opposite. The most prevailant mt DNA is type V and U5b which are very old European markers. They are not at all Asian. The. Type can be found at higher levels with the Basques, Cantabrians and even the Berber. One theory is that this type represents the original Europeans that even survived the ice age.
關(guān)于薩米人的母系DNA，情況正好相反。最普遍的線粒體DNA類型是V型和U5b型，這些都是非常古老的歐洲標(biāo)記。它們完全不是亞洲的。這個(gè)類型在巴斯克人、坎塔布里亞人甚至柏柏爾人中也能找到。一種理論認(rèn)為，這些類型代表了甚至在冰河時(shí)期幸存下來的原始?xì)W洲人。
Nobody needed to give them permission. They ARE European. Instead of posting inane crap, invest in a fucking world map
沒有人需要給他們許可。他們就是歐洲人。與其發(fā)些無聊的東西，不如投資看看世界地圖。
You could start with geography; Europe ends in the East at Ural mountains, in the north there’s the sea, and we’re west of Urals and south of the sea.
Besides, we don’t need your permission for jack.
你可以從地理開始；歐洲東部的邊界是烏拉爾山脈，北部是海洋，我們在烏拉爾山脈的西側(cè)和海洋的南側(cè)。此外，我們不需要你的許可做任何事。
Hi John. You are obviously trying to stimulate negative feelings in others but underneath that attempt there are a couple of healthy points that can be made. Unlike for example Denmark, because of their location, Norway, Sweden and Finland are on the fringe of Europe. That, coupled with the fact that it is impossible to access them by foot [without having to go all the way around, through Russia], makes them not really but more or less an island, so, whenever people think of Europe they don’t really think about those nations.
嗨，約翰。你顯然是在試圖激發(fā)他人的負(fù)面情緒，但在這種嘗試的背后有一些健康的觀點(diǎn)可以提出。與丹麥不同，由于地理位置，挪威、瑞典和芬蘭位于歐洲的邊緣。這，加上無法直接步行到達(dá)它們（必須繞行通過俄羅斯），使得它們實(shí)際上更像是一個(gè)島嶼。因此，當(dāng)人們想到歐洲時(shí)，他們不太會(huì)想到這些國家。
這很明顯。他們想到的是法國、德國、意大利等。葡萄牙在地理上和心理上也是邊緣性的。例如，西班牙就不是。在挪威、瑞典和芬蘭的情況下，我們也可以說，它們在歐洲歷史的背景下文化影響力不大。人類活動(dòng)往往發(fā)生在溫暖的地方。寒冷的地區(qū)不吸引人類和人類活動(dòng)。這并不是負(fù)面的，只是事實(shí)?；氐健吘墖摇豪?，英國和俄羅斯在地理上是邊緣的，英國比俄羅斯稍微少一些（因?yàn)橛且粋€(gè)島嶼），但由于文化和歷史，英國在心理上并不邊緣，后者融入了前者。相反的情況也適用。
它們是歐洲最重要的國家之一。但如果你問英國人，可能不是所有人，但肯定很多人，因?yàn)樗麄兩硖帊u嶼，英國人并不認(rèn)為自己是歐洲不可分割的一部分，因?yàn)樗麄儾皇谴箨懭恕?br /> 盡管離法國和荷蘭非常近，但他們不能直接步行到這些地方，因?yàn)楹Ｑ笫敲黠@的障礙。因此，在他們的心目中，“歐洲在那邊，而我們在這邊?！边@種看法是真實(shí)的。關(guān)于這種感知和自我意識，斯堪的納維亞的區(qū)別在于，英國人通常很活躍，并且習(xí)慣于旅行，而挪威人、瑞典人或芬蘭人則更愿意待在自己所在的地方，因此他們不會(huì)太考慮“水那邊有什么”。他們當(dāng)然是歐洲人，也在歐洲，他們不會(huì)覺得自己在心理上與歐洲脫節(jié)，因?yàn)閷λ麄儊碚f，其他歐洲國家大多是未知的。那是他們在電影或互聯(lián)網(wǎng)中看到的東西。
這些只是觀念，沒有道德上的結(jié)論。你可以問其中一些人，以及其他一些人（如德國人、意大利人、葡萄牙人、羅馬尼亞人、希臘人、保加利亞人等），為什么他們認(rèn)為自己是歐洲人，顯然和明顯是歐洲人，但卻很快把俄羅斯看作非歐洲國家，以及背后的理由。這是一個(gè)合法的問題，尤其是對那些在歐洲、歐洲歷史和歐洲文化背景中相對無關(guān)緊要的國家。
They did, based on the geographical location of their country and all the wars they fought in Europe over the centuries.
他們確實(shí)這樣認(rèn)為，這基于他們國家的地理位置以及他們在歐洲幾個(gè)世紀(jì)以來所參與的所有戰(zhàn)爭。
Finland is in Europe, but the language, like Hungarian and Estonian, is not an Indo-European one, and comes from different roots. They are modernly frequently intermarried with other Northern Europeans, but many of the custural traditions are different.
芬蘭在歐洲，但像匈牙利語和愛沙尼亞語一樣，它的語言不是印歐語系的，而是源于不同的根源。盡管現(xiàn)代芬蘭人與其他北歐人有頻繁的通婚，但他們的文化傳統(tǒng)仍然有所不同。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Well, their country is on the European continent. Your failure to understand geography does not invalidate them being European. Why do you say their language is not European? It has the same roots as Hungarian. Or are you saying that Hungarians are not European? What makes their culture non-European? What is “European culture”? Bullfights? Baguettes? Beer? Wooden shoes? Casinos? Erupting volcanoes? Line dancing?
好吧，他們的國家在歐洲大陸。你不懂地理，并不代表他們不是歐洲人。你為什么說他們的語言不是歐洲的？它和匈牙利語有相同的根源?；蛘吣闶窃谡f匈牙利人不是歐洲人？是什么讓他們的文化非歐洲化？什么是“歐洲文化”？斗牛？法棍？啤酒？木鞋？賭場？火山爆發(fā)？排舞？
Well… as Finland is within the traditional borders of the Continent of “Europe”, in “Scandinavia”, to be more precise…and have been a part of European history and culture for literally centuries, they are quite European, and they, and everyone else who has given the matter even a little thought, consider the Finns European, nor did they need permission from anyone else to be so designated, as it is obvious! Even I, as an American citizen (whom Europeans often condescendingly, and inaccurately, call ignorant and stupid!) know that much!
嗯……既然芬蘭位于“歐洲”的傳統(tǒng)邊界內(nèi)，更具體地說是在“斯堪的納維亞”，并且在歐洲歷史和文化中存在了幾個(gè)世紀(jì)，他們非常歐洲，而且他們以及所有對這個(gè)問題有一點(diǎn)思考的人都認(rèn)為芬蘭人是歐洲人，他們也不需要?jiǎng)e人的許可來被認(rèn)定為如此，這是顯而易見的！即使我作為一個(gè)美國公民（盡管歐洲人常常以一種居高臨下的方式，且不準(zhǔn)確地稱我為無知和愚蠢?。┮仓肋@一點(diǎn)。
You should learn a few things.
Finns are as European as Scandinavians, Indo-Europeans or stone age hunter gatherers. They came from North Ural and/or from Southeast Europe/West Asia.
Norse Scandinavian gods were either Aesir (warriors from Asia) or Vanir (farm gods from Van in Anatolia). when the Norse formed the Battle Axe Bronze Age culture, Finns formed other cultures next to them. And they interacted since then. The Sami people are also Finns from this time and via more recent Arctit migrations, and they are the indegenous people of North Europe, like the Native Americans.
你應(yīng)該了解一些事情。芬蘭人和斯堪的納維亞人、印歐人或石器時(shí)代的狩獵采集者一樣都是歐洲人。他們來自北烏拉爾地區(qū)和/或東南歐/西亞。北歐的斯堪的納維亞神要么是Aesir（來自亞洲的戰(zhàn)士），要么是Vanir（來自安納托利亞的農(nóng)業(yè)神）。當(dāng)北歐人形成戰(zhàn)斧青銅時(shí)代文化時(shí)，芬蘭人形成了他們自己的其他文化，并且自那時(shí)起就進(jìn)行了互動(dòng)。薩米人也是那個(gè)時(shí)代的芬蘭人，經(jīng)過更近期的極地遷徙，他們是北歐的土著民族，就像美洲原住民一樣。
Ummm who gave you the “permission” to question our identity as European?
I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me.
嗯……誰給你“許可”來質(zhì)疑我們作為歐洲人的身份？如果您能告訴我的話我將非常感激。
And in what way is a stupid guy from Louisiana entitled to ask such an offensive question?
OF COURSE the Finns are European. Finland is an independent country, but still its inhabitants feel much closer to Sweden - for 600 years Sweden and Finland wasd an integral country - than with their ever bullying and threatening neighbours to the east.
Don’t ask about things of which you don’t even have the faintest understanding!
一個(gè)來自路易斯安那州的愚蠢家伙憑什么有權(quán)問這樣一個(gè)冒犯性的問題？芬蘭人當(dāng)然是歐洲人。芬蘭是一個(gè)獨(dú)立的國家，但其居民感覺與瑞典的關(guān)系更親近——因?yàn)樵谶^去的600年里，瑞典和芬蘭曾是一個(gè)整體——而不是與他們總是霸凌和威脅的東鄰。不要問你完全不了解的事情！
Thanks for the A2A.
We Europeans gave them that permission. They’re 100% European in both language and culture. Looking at a map might help you understand the basic concept here.
You’re American, according to your profile, so your say is limited to a vote on who’s allowed to call themselves American. Mind you, you might still lose that vote.
感謝提問。我們歐洲人給了他們這個(gè)“許可”。他們在語言和文化上都是百分之百的歐洲人?？纯吹貓D可能會(huì)幫助你理解這個(gè)基本概念。你是美國人，根據(jù)你的個(gè)人資料，你的意見只限于投票決定誰能自稱為美國人。請注意，您仍可能失去這一投票權(quán)。
Europe is a land mass containing many countries, languages and cultures. None of them are the face of Europe , they are only representative of their own country.
On any map Finland is in Europe , even the Western portion of Russia is in Europe, live with it.
And whilst on the subject , Israel and the Arab states are NOT in Europe they are the Near East, India, Pakistan etc are the Middle East and Thailand onwards is the Far East. Trump calling Israel a Far East country just about sums up the idiot.
( As to Eurovision, Israel, Turkey and Australia should not be in the contest .)
歐洲是一個(gè)包含許多國家、語言和文化的大陸。沒有任何國家可以代表整個(gè)歐洲，它們只是各自國家的代表。在任何地圖上，芬蘭都在歐洲，連俄羅斯的西部也在歐洲，接受這一點(diǎn)吧。至于以色列和阿拉伯國家不在歐洲，它們屬于近東，印度、巴基斯坦等屬于中東，泰國及以東屬于遠(yuǎn)東。特朗普稱以色列為遠(yuǎn)東國家，簡直是個(gè)愚蠢的錯(cuò)誤。（至于歐洲歌唱大賽，以色列、土耳其和澳大利亞不該參加。）
Europe has roughly 50 nations and each has their own culture and language. Finns are definitely in Europe and yup their language and culture is one of the many languages and cultures in Europe. They can call themself European because their nation is located in Europe.
They don’t need permission to call themselves European they are European. I gather you are in one of those countries where a person can’t do anything without explicit permission. Poor you.
歐洲大約有50個(gè)國家，每個(gè)國家都有自己的文化和語言。芬蘭人絕對是歐洲的一部分，他們的語言和文化也是歐洲文化的一部分。他們可以稱自己為歐洲人，因?yàn)樗麄兊膰椅挥跉W洲。
他們不需要許可就可以稱自己為歐洲人，他們就是歐洲人。我猜你們所在的國家就是這樣的國家，沒有明確許可，任何人都不能做任何事情。你們真可憐。
If you thinking of Finnic tribes settling the peninsula then that’s a few thousand years since now. So the Finnic migration to Europe is comparable to indo european migration to well Europe. If descendants of these groups are not european then Swedes or English or Spanish are not European either. Perhaps just the Basques and Sardinians are true European. As an aside Swedish is an official language in Finland and territories of Finland used to be Sweden for many hundred years . Also if the threshold to be European is strong lixs as a people earlier than indo European migration then for sure only native Americans are well Americans and the other ones by your own standard not even European
如果你考慮芬蘭部落定居在半島，那么這已經(jīng)是幾千年前的事情了。因此芬蘭部落的遷徙到歐洲可以和印歐遷徙相提并論。如果這些群體的后裔不是歐洲人，那瑞典人、英國人或西班牙人也就不是歐洲人了。也許只有巴斯克人和撒丁島人是真正的歐洲人。順便說一句，瑞典語是芬蘭的官方語言，而芬蘭的領(lǐng)土曾經(jīng)屬于瑞典很多年。如果成為歐洲人的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)是比印歐遷徙更早的民族聯(lián)系，那么顯然只有美洲原住民才算真正的美洲人，而其他人按你的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)甚至不算歐洲人。
You are clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but it’s still amusing to see how ignorant some people are.
Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language. 99.9% of the Finno-Ugric speakers live and have lived in Europe for thousands of years. Meanwhile a dominant part of the Indo-European language speakers never even set a foot on European soil. So who is more European then?
顯然你不是最聰明的人，但看到一些人的無知仍然很有趣。芬蘭語是芬諾-烏戈?duì)栒Z族的語言。99.9%的芬諾-烏戈?duì)栒Z使用者在過去幾千年里一直生活在歐洲。而與此同時(shí)，許多印歐語系的使用者甚至沒有踏上過歐洲土地。那么誰更具歐洲特征呢？
Based on your question, I don’t assume you recognise the picture below. This is Helsinki the capital of Finland. How much more European could that be?
順便問一下，我猜你也不認(rèn)為自己是美國人。因?yàn)榘茨愕倪壿?，你的語言和文化在美國明顯是“非美國”的。美國的語言和文化與芬蘭的文化和歷史相比，僅占?xì)W洲的15-20%。有人允許你稱自己為美國人嗎？我敢打賭會(huì)有人對此提出異議。根據(jù)你的問題，我猜你不認(rèn)識下面的圖片。這是芬蘭首都赫爾辛基。還能有多歐洲呢？
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://www.top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Every one of the 44 UN countries on the European continent are fiercely independent, and even if some have common languages, the local dialects are very specific. From Spain to Sweden, they are mostly cooperative, and will never move away from their respective cultures. Even Russia and Ukraine are part of Europe. Only Americans make the mistake of calling Europe a country, so that leads to the impression that any country not speaking the imaginary “European” language, is not part of it.
歐洲大陸上的44個(gè)聯(lián)合國成員國都是極其獨(dú)立的，即使有些國家有共同語言，當(dāng)?shù)氐姆窖砸卜浅＊?dú)特。
從西班牙到瑞典，它們大多是合作的，但不會(huì)偏離各自的文化。即使是俄羅斯和烏克蘭也屬于歐洲。只有美國人會(huì)犯將歐洲稱為一個(gè)國家的錯(cuò)誤，這給人的印象是，任何不說想象中的“歐洲”語言的國家都不是歐洲的一部分。