在古希臘人出現(xiàn)之前，希臘是否曾經(jīng)有過一個古老的民族居住？

Was there an ancient race of people inhabiting Greece before the Ancient Greeks came along?

2024-10-23 不要可樂 4987 34 5 收藏糾錯&舉報

譯文簡介

網(wǎng)友：根據(jù)古希臘作家的說法，希臘的居民是佩拉斯吉人。如今，人們普遍認(rèn)為希臘語系的居民在青銅時代移民到希臘，并與前希臘人群融合，形成了希臘民族。佩拉斯吉人和那里的其他部落講了一系列不屬于印歐語系、不屬于閃米特語系，也不屬于已知語言群體的語言，這些語言大部分仍未被破譯。

正文翻譯

Was there an ancient race of people inhabiting Greece before the Ancient Greeks came along?

在古希臘人出現(xiàn)之前，希臘是否曾經(jīng)有過一個古老的民族居住？

評論翻譯

Ioannis Kokkinidis
Per the ancient Greek authors Greece was inhabited by Pelasgians. Nowadays it is more thought that Greek-speakers immigrated to Greece in the Bronze Age and fused with the prehellenic population to form the Greek nation. The Pelasgians and the rest of the tribes there spoke a series of languages that was not Indoeuropean, not Semitic, not belonging to known language group as is for the most part undeciphered.

根據(jù)古希臘作家的說法，希臘的居民是佩拉斯吉人。如今，人們普遍認(rèn)為希臘語系的居民在青銅時代移民到希臘，并與前希臘人群融合，形成了希臘民族。佩拉斯吉人和那里的其他部落講了一系列不屬于印歐語系、不屬于閃米特語系，也不屬于已知語言群體的語言，這些語言大部分仍未被破譯。

In the 1990s a theory was proposed that has been accepted that Minoan, Eteocypriot, Pelasgian as attested in the Lemnian steles, Etruscan (per Herodotus they did immigrated to Italy from Asia Minor) and several other minor languages belong to a putative Aegean language group. Note: even in the case of Etruscan which is best attested and can be read, full decipherement is proving problematic.

20世紀(jì)90年代，人們提出了一種理論，認(rèn)為米諾斯語、埃特塞浦路斯語、佩拉斯語（在利姆尼亞石碑上得到了證實(shí)）、伊特魯里亞語（根據(jù)希羅多德的說法，他們確實(shí)是從小亞細(xì)亞半島移民到意大利的）和其他幾種小語種屬于一個假定的愛琴海語系。注意：即使在伊特魯里亞人的情況下，這是最好的證明，可以閱讀，完全破譯證明是有問題的。

Culturally women had a more powerful position than in historical Greek culture, though to call any of the prehellenic culture a gynaecocracy is nowadays considered a bit of a stretch. Some of the prehellenic cultures survived in the first millenium BC, the Eteocretans and Eteocypriots, the Pelasgians of Mt Athos and Lemnos, but while there are inscxtions and some outside descxtions, we do not really have any text to tell their tale from their POV. Archaeological digs do not show something fundamentally different from their Greek neighbors.

在文化上，女性的地位比歷史上的希臘文化更強(qiáng)大，盡管將任何前希臘文化稱為婦科文化在今天被認(rèn)為有點(diǎn)牽強(qiáng)。一些前希臘文化在公元前一千年幸存了下來，如埃特奧克里特人和埃特塞普里特人，阿陀斯山和利姆諾斯山的佩拉斯吉人，但是盡管有銘文和一些外部描述，，我們實(shí)際上沒有任何文本可以從他們的角度講述他們的故事。考古發(fā)掘并沒有顯示出他們與希臘鄰居有什么本質(zhì)上的不同。

Bob DeWitt
There is no generally accepted scientific evidence that the ancient Greeks originated in Troy, however the primary group of people that lived in what later became known as Greece were the Mycenaeans who mostly occupied the Peloponnesus, although there were settlements on the mainland as well.

目前沒有廣泛接受的科學(xué)證據(jù)表明古希臘人起源于特洛伊，然而，生活在后來被稱為希臘的地方的主要人群是邁錫尼人，他們主要居住在伯羅奔尼撒半島，盡管在大陸上也有定居點(diǎn)。

Arthur John
With all the rather well written responses from many rather keen students of early Greece, is there one of you whom might say a few words about the Albanian's ancestors.

許多熱衷于早期希臘研究的學(xué)者都給出了相當(dāng)出色的回答，你們當(dāng)中有誰能談?wù)劙柊湍醽喨说淖嫦葐幔?/b>

Peter Herz
The ancient Greeks spoke of the Pelasgians being there before them, and there seems to be a non-Indo-European substrate in ancient Greek dealing with things that are strictly Mediterranean and/or dealing with state organization.

古希臘人提到佩拉斯吉人在他們之前就已經(jīng)存在，并且在古希臘語中似乎存在一個非印歐語系的底層語言，這與一些嚴(yán)格屬于地中海文化的事物和/或與國家組織有關(guān)。

Chris Barriere
Yes, the Greeks lived in Greece for thousands of years before interacting with boat builders. Evidence in some remote areas indicates a cultural continuity stretching back to the late Pleistocene. Nomadic Hunter gatherers began to settle down and practice rudimentary agriculture as early as 10,000 BC. The mainland of Greece has an equal amount of ancient sites, megaliths, and cave men bodies as any other place. The Real Question is who built some of the cities in Greece, because some are very, very old; much older than Ancient Greece or Persia.

是的，希臘人在與造船者接觸之前，已經(jīng)在希臘生活了數(shù)千年。一些偏遠(yuǎn)地區(qū)的證據(jù)表明，文化的連續(xù)性可以追溯到晚更新世。早在公元前10,000年，游牧狩獵采集者就開始定居并進(jìn)行初步的農(nóng)業(yè)活動。希臘大陸上擁有與其他地方一樣多的古代遺址、巨石和穴居遺骸。真正的問題是誰建造了希臘的一些城市，因?yàn)橛行┏鞘蟹浅７浅９爬?；比古希臘或波斯古老得多。

Samuel Lee
Yes. At least some of them were called Pelasgians, & that name appears in Greek traditions of the mythical & heroic period. Certain Greek place names & other words, for example those ending in “-nth-” (like Korinthos (Corinth), Tiryns (genitive Tirynthos), & akanthos), are thought to have been derived from the language of the pre-Hellenic population. Also the original inhabitants of Crete (today called the Minoans, from the name of the legendary King Minos, who ruled in the Cretan city of Knossos, one of the major centers of Minoan culture) spoke a non-Greek language, written in the Linear A scxt, which has not yet been deciphered (although Linear B, which was derived from Linear A, has been deciphered, which is how we know that the Mycenaeans spoke an early form of Greek). The Minoan language may have been semitic, since the people known to the ancient Greeks as the Eteocretans spoke a semitic language.

是的，至少有一些人被稱為佩拉斯吉人，這個名字出現(xiàn)在希臘神話和英雄時代的傳統(tǒng)中。一些希臘地名和其他詞匯，例如以“-nth-”結(jié)尾的詞（如科林斯（Korinthos）、提林斯（Tiryns，屬格為Tirynthos）和阿坎索斯（akanthos）），被認(rèn)為源自前希臘人群體的語言。此外，克里特島的原住民（今天被稱為米諾斯人，以傳說中的米諾斯國王的名字命名，他統(tǒng)治著克里特島城市克諾索斯，克諾索斯是米諾斯文化的主要中心之一）講的是一種非希臘語言，用線性文字 A 書寫，這種文字尚未被破譯（盡管從線性文字 A 衍生而來的線性文字 B 已被破譯，這就是我們知道邁錫尼人講的是希臘語的早期形式）。米諾斯語可能屬于閃米特語，因?yàn)楣畔ＥD人所稱的伊特奧克里特人講的是一種閃米特語。

April Miller
The first inhabitants of Greece were the prehistoric peoples who settled in the region during the Neolithic period (circa 7000–3200 BCE). These were diverse cultures with varying levels of technological advancement, such as the Cycladic, Minoan, and Mycenaean civilizations.

希臘的第一批居民是史前民族，他們在新石器時代（公元前7000年左右至公元前3200年）定居于該地區(qū)。這些文化多樣，具有不同水平的技術(shù)進(jìn)步，包括如基克拉迪文明、米諾斯文明和邁錫尼文明。

The Greeks, as we commonly recognize them, emerged during the Bronze Age. The earliest recognized Greek civilization is the Minoan civilization, which flourished on the island of Crete around 2000 BCE. The Mycenaeans, another early Greek civilization, emerged on the mainland around 1600 BCE. These were the precursors to what we consider classical Greek culture, which emerged around the 8th century BCE with the development of city-states like Athens and Sparta.

我們通常所認(rèn)知的希臘人是在青銅時代出現(xiàn)的。最早被認(rèn)知的希臘文明是米諾斯文明，該文明于公元前 2000 年左右在克里特島上蓬勃發(fā)展。另一個早期希臘文明是邁錫尼文明，約公元前1600年在希臘大陸上興起。這些文明是我們所認(rèn)為的古典希臘文化的前身，古典希臘文化大約在公元前8世紀(jì)隨著雅典和斯巴達(dá)等城邦的發(fā)展而形成。

George Alparos
You’re quite confused there.
How would you call the people inhabiting Greece before the supposedly “Greeks” came to inhabit it? Your question doesn't make any sense.
Clearly what you ask rests on some nonsense theories about some non-existent Indoeuropean people that spoke some non-existent Indoeuropean language and supposedly some of these ghost people inhabited Greece kicking out its former habitats.

你顯然有些混淆。
你會如何稱呼那些在所謂“希臘人”來到之前居住在希臘的人？你的問題沒有任何意義。
顯然，你的問題建立在一些關(guān)于不存在的印度-歐洲人及其所說的不存在的印度-歐洲語言的荒謬?yán)碚撝?，且這些所謂的幽靈人居住在希臘，驅(qū)逐了當(dāng)?shù)氐木用瘛?/b>

However, truth is that there hasn't been single evidence of their existence whatsoever, so this IE theory collapsed in its own stupidity. To date, some insist on writing about the ghost Indoeuropeans in Wikipedia and the like only to embarrass themselves.
The fact is that not a single ancient author doubted the indigenity of the Greek people and there hasn't been a single reference of any other people come settling in Greece at any time in ancient history.

然而，事實(shí)是，至今沒有任何證據(jù)證明他們的存在，因此這個印度-歐洲人理論在其愚蠢中崩潰了。至今仍有人堅(jiān)持在維基百科等地方寫關(guān)于這些幽靈印度-歐洲人的內(nèi)容，真是讓人感到羞愧。
事實(shí)上，沒有任何古代作者質(zhì)疑希臘民族的本土性，也沒有任何文獻(xiàn)提到在古代歷史中有其他民族在希臘定居的情況。

Mike White
I think it is reasonable to consider all people who lived in Greece peaceably, and were accepted, for at least a couple of generations, as being Greeks. Just as modern people who may have migrated there consider themselves rightly as Greeks.

我認(rèn)為，考慮到所有在希臘和平生活并被接受了幾代人的人，認(rèn)為他們是希臘人是合理的。就像現(xiàn)代人可能遷移到那里，理所當(dāng)然地認(rèn)為自己是希臘人一樣。

When under Frisian domination, those Frisians who lived in Greece likely thought of themselves as Greeks. The Arcadians were Greeks, as were the Dorians after being there a while. The Phoenicians who founded Thebes were in time Greeks, as were the Cretans and Phrygians, those of the Cyclades, and Ionia.

在弗里斯蘭人統(tǒng)治期間，那些生活在希臘的弗里西亞人可能也認(rèn)為自己是希臘人。阿卡迪亞人是希臘人，多利安人在希臘居住了一段時間后也成了希臘人。創(chuàng)立底比斯的腓尼基人最終也是希臘人，克里特人、弗里吉亞人、基克拉澤斯群島的人和伊奧尼亞人也是如此。

The same can be said for the Cyclopes and Titans who built the megalithic structures of Greece.
When I read Homer with respect and admiration, I feel myself a little bit Greek. As we all should, for the Greeks stood sentry and protected the eastern gateway of Europe for millennias. They hold a tradition of being hospitable warriors and noble philosophers.

對于建造希臘巨石結(jié)構(gòu)的獨(dú)眼巨人和泰坦們，也可以這樣說。
當(dāng)我懷著尊重和欽佩閱讀荷馬時，我感覺自己也有一點(diǎn)希臘人的身份。我們所有人都應(yīng)該如此，因?yàn)橄ＥD人守衛(wèi)并保護(hù)了歐洲的東部門戶長達(dá)數(shù)千年。他們有著熱情好客的戰(zhàn)士和高尚的哲學(xué)家的傳統(tǒng)。

Niko Vasileas
Legends state there was a pre-Greek people called the Pelasgians Πελασγοι, but this term seams rather in precise as it could mean any pre-Greek inhabitant of Greece, or the ancestors of the Greeks. We know Greece has been inhabited since the stone age, and that cultures developed on the mainland and islands. Some of their place names (Korinthos, Zakynthos, Parnassos) survive in Greece today, as well as vocabulary like thalassa (sea).

傳說中有一個被稱為佩拉斯吉人（Πελασγοι）的前希臘民族，但這個術(shù)語似乎不夠精確，因?yàn)樗赡苤溉魏吻跋ＥD時期居住在希臘的居民，或是希臘人的祖先。我們知道希臘自石器時代以來就有人居住，并且在大陸和島嶼上發(fā)展出了一些文化。一些地名（如科林斯、扎金索斯和帕爾納索斯）在今天的希臘仍然存在，此外還有一些詞匯，比如“thalassa”（海）。

Homer and other writers spoke of "etocdeatans" and "etocypriotes" who lived on these islands before the Greeks, and we know a people (perhaps related to the Etruscans ) lived on Lemnos. The proto-Greek speakers entered into Greece and in the northern mainland (across Epiros, Thessalia and parts of Macedonia) the earliest Greek dialects formed. These people would colonize the rest of what is now Greece, and absorb these earlier peoples (most famously taking Crete when the Minoans entered into crisis) and this mixtures of earlier people and Indo-European tribes would be the ethnogenesis of the Greeks.

荷馬和其他作家提到過“埃托克德人”（etocdeatans）和“埃托基普里人”（etocypriotes），他們在希臘人之前就居住在這些島嶼上，而我們知道有一個民族（可能與伊特魯里亞人有關(guān)）曾生活在萊姆諾斯島。原始希臘語的說話者進(jìn)入希臘，在北部大陸（跨越埃皮魯斯、塞薩利和部分馬其頓地區(qū)）形成了最早的希臘方言。這些人將殖民現(xiàn)在希臘的其他地區(qū)，并吸收這些早期的民族（最著名的是在米諾斯人進(jìn)入危機(jī)時征服克里特島），而這些早期民族和印歐部落的混合將成為希臘人的民族生成過程

Indicus
Yes, the ancient Greeks were intrusive to the land we know today as modern Greece and western Turkey. Prior to their arrival, indigenous populations existed whom the ancient Greeks called Pelasgoí or Pelasgians. It is not known what language they spoke or where they came from. Historians conjecture that they were most likely not an Indo-European speaking population as the ancient place names (rivers etc.) do not show an Indo-European origin. It is thought the immigrant ancient Greeks retained the old names, as is common with new entrants to a society.

是的，古希臘人對我們今天所知的現(xiàn)代希臘和西土耳其的土地具有侵入性。在他們到來之前，土著人群生活在這里，古希臘人稱他們?yōu)镻elasgoí或Pelasgians。我們不知道他們說什么語言，也不知道他們來自哪里。歷史學(xué)家推測，他們很可能不是講印歐語的人群，因?yàn)楣爬系牡孛ㄈ绾恿鞯龋]有顯示出印歐語的起源。人們認(rèn)為，移民的古希臘人保留了這些舊名稱，這在新進(jìn)入社會的群體中是很常見的。

Ioannis Manomenidis
We have to realise what history in contrast with prehistory is. History is based and starts from the time that we have written data findings. In written data one may realise if the text is Greek or not. But how can one specify the nationality withought written texts? Humans (neither Greeks) are not born knowing writing. Writing was invented, developed and is being tought afterwards. Obviously we can definately prove Greeks from writting in historic period, but we can not prove, although they also existed, in prehistoric, until we will find something written and extent historical times backwards.

我們必須認(rèn)識到歷史與史前時期的區(qū)別。歷史是基于有書面資料的時期開始的。在書面資料中，我們可以識別文本是否是希臘文。但是，在沒有書面文本的情況下，如何確定國籍呢？人類（無論是希臘人還是其他人）并不是天生就會寫字的。寫作是被發(fā)明、發(fā)展并隨后教授的。顯然，我們可以通過歷史時期的書寫證明希臘人的存在，但我們無法證明，盡管他們在史前也存在過，直到我們找到一些書面資料并將歷史推回到更早的時期。

Outside of writting one may base his evidence on other matters. like human traditions and remainings, culture in grneral, which also is more difficult to document for distant periods. It is difficult to document positive ethnic identity, but it can not be excluded, unless another identity will be positively specified, which obviously is much more difficult, because every cultural element is obviously incorporated into the latter Greek culture, either it was Greek initially or not. And what is Greek at the end? if not the whole human evolution in this area, from distant past until now?

在沒有書寫的情況下，人們可以基于其他方面來證明，比如人類的傳統(tǒng)和遺留物、文化總體，這在遙遠(yuǎn)的時期同樣也更難以記錄。記錄積極的民族身份是困難的，但并不能排除，除非有其他身份被明確證明，而這顯然要難得多，因?yàn)槊恳环N文化元素?zé)o疑都融入了后來的希臘文化中，無論它最初是否是希臘的。那么，最終什么是希臘呢？不就是這一地區(qū)從遠(yuǎn)古到現(xiàn)在的整個歷史演變嗎？

Charles Atkins
Ah yes, it just so happens that I wrote a blog yesterday! You can read it here: Ancient Ancient Greece
This is a very brief summary: The Island of Crete was inhabited by a civilization of wealthy sea traders called the Minoans from c. 3000–1500 BCE. Located on the island is the Palace of Knossos, where frescoes and other works of art depict their history.

啊，是的，恰好我昨天寫了一篇博客！你可以在這里閱讀：《古老的古希臘》。
這是一段非常簡要的總結(jié)：克里特島上曾經(jīng)棲息著一個富裕的海上貿(mào)易文明，稱為米諾斯文明，存在于公元前3000年至1500年之間。島上有克諾索斯宮殿，那里壁畫和其他藝術(shù)作品描繪了他們的歷史。

After a devastating tidal wave, the mainland Mycenaeans managed to conquer the Minoans. The Mycenaeans built palaces, and during the Dark Ages, c. 1200–800 BCE, they battled the Trojans but were conquered by the Dorians. This started the Archaic period (c. 800–600 BCE) when the poleis were established.

在經(jīng)過一次毀滅性的海嘯后，希臘大陸的邁錫尼人成功征服了米諾斯人。邁錫尼人建立了宮殿，在黑暗時代（公元前1200年至800年）期間，他們與特洛伊人展開戰(zhàn)斗，但最終被多利人征服。這標(biāo)志著古風(fēng)時期（公元前800年至600年）的開始，城邦逐漸建立。

Karen Carr
Yes, there were people living in Greece before the Greeks arrived. They didn’t write, so we don’t know what they called themselves. The first pre-Greek people probably came to Greece as fishermen and sailors, following the Eastern Mediterranean coast and then sailing or paddling from island to island. There were certainly modern humans living in Greece by around 38,000 BCE, that is to say, not so long after the first humans left Africa.

是的，希臘人在到達(dá)之前就有人在希臘生活。他們不會寫字，所以我們不知道他們自稱什么。第一批前希臘人可能作為漁民和水手來到希臘，沿著東地中海沿岸航行，然后從島嶼間劃船或航行。據(jù)說在公元前38,000年左右，現(xiàn)代人類已經(jīng)在希臘生活，也就是說，這離第一批人類離開非洲的時間并不久。

Many of these first people lived in caves along the seashore, and they probably lived mainly on fish and seafood like clams, mussels, octopus, shrimp, and squid, as well as gathering wild figs, berries, nuts, and so on. Others (as at Franchthi Cave) lived further inland and hunted wild deer and donkeys. By about 7500 BCE they seem to have been deep sea fishing for tuna.

這些早期的人大多住在沿海的洞穴里，他們主要以魚和海鮮為生，如蛤蜊、貽貝、章魚、蝦和魷魚，同時也采集野生無花果、漿果、堅(jiān)果等食物。還有一些人（如在弗朗希提洞穴）生活在更內(nèi)陸的地方，獵捕野鹿和驢。，狩獵野鹿和驢子。到公元前7500年左右，他們似乎已經(jīng)開始深海捕撈金槍魚。

Around 7000 BCE, apparently new people arrived from West Asia (the Middle East) who were farmers, and they brought their wheat and barley seeds with them, and domesticated sheep and goats, pigs, and cattle. Soon most Greeks were farming as well as fishing, living in villages in small huts with thatched roofs, with wooden palisades around them.

大約在公元前7000年，顯然有新的農(nóng)民從西亞（中東）到達(dá)，他們帶來了小麥和大麥種子以及馴養(yǎng)的羊、山羊、豬和牛。很快大多數(shù)希臘人也開始農(nóng)業(yè)和捕魚，住在有茅草屋頂?shù)男〈迩f里，周圍有木柵欄。
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About 3000 BCE, these people learned to use bronze, probably from trade with West Asian people who invented bronze. Their towns got bigger, with stone walls and stone houses with tile roofs. But around 2100 BCE, the Greeks invaded and took over, probably because they had horses and the local people didn’t. A severe drought affecting the entire area about this time (ending the Old Kingdom in Egypt) probably also played a part.

大約在公元前3000年，這些人學(xué)會了使用青銅，可能是通過與發(fā)明青銅的西亞人進(jìn)行貿(mào)易。他們的城鎮(zhèn)逐漸變大，開始有石墻和瓦頂?shù)氖孔?。但在公元?100年左右，希臘人入侵并占領(lǐng)了這些地區(qū)，可能是因?yàn)樗麄儞碛旭R匹，而當(dāng)?shù)厝藳]有。大約這個時候，影響整個地區(qū)的一場嚴(yán)重干旱（結(jié)束了埃及的古王國）也可能起了一定的作用。

The Greeks brought their language with them, but they also took over a few words of the pre-Greek language: “thalassa” for ocean, “hyakinthos” for hyacinth flowers, etc.

希臘人帶來了他們的語言，但他們也吸收了一些前希臘語言的詞匯，例如“thalassa”意為海洋，“hyakinthos”意為風(fēng)信子花等。

Assistant
Yes, before the Ancient Greeks, several prehistoric cultures inhabited the region that is now modern Greece. Among the most notable are:

在古希臘之前，多個史前文化居住在現(xiàn)在的希臘地區(qū)。其中最著名的包括：

The Minoans: This civilization flourished on the island of Crete from approximately 3000 to 1450 BCE. The Minoans are known for their advanced architecture, including the palace at Knossos, as well as their art and trade networks.

米諾斯文明：這個文明大約在公元前3000年至1450年間在克里特島繁榮發(fā)展。米諾斯人以其先進(jìn)的建筑而聞名，包括克諾索斯宮殿，以及他們的藝術(shù)和貿(mào)易網(wǎng)絡(luò)。

The Mycenaeans: Following the Minoans, the Mycenaean civilization emerged around 1600 BCE and lasted until about 1100 BCE. They were known for their fortified palace complexes, such as those at Mycenae and Tiryns, and for their contributions to Greek mythology and epic poetry, including the stories of the Trojan War.

邁錫尼文明：繼米諾斯文明之后，邁錫尼文明大約在公元前1600年出現(xiàn)，并持續(xù)到公元前1100年。他們以其堅(jiān)固的宮殿建筑群而著稱，例如邁錫尼和提林斯，并為希臘神話和史詩詩歌做出了貢獻(xiàn)，包括特洛伊戰(zhàn)爭的故事。

Neolithic Cultures: Prior to these civilizations, various Neolithic cultures existed in Greece, with evidence of agricultural communities dating back to around 7000 BCE. These early societies laid the groundwork for later developments in Greek civilization.
These cultures significantly influenced the development of Ancient Greek civilization, which began to emerge around the 8th century BCE.

新石器時代文化：在這些文明之前，希臘地區(qū)存在著多種新石器時代文化，農(nóng)業(yè)社區(qū)的證據(jù)可追溯到公元前7000年左右。這些早期社會為后來的希臘文明發(fā)展奠定了基礎(chǔ)。
這些文化對古希臘文明的發(fā)展產(chǎn)生了重要影響，古希臘文明大約在公元前8世紀(jì)開始顯現(xiàn)。

古希臘人 希臘古老民族

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在古希臘人出現(xiàn)之前，希臘是否曾經(jīng)有過一個古老的民族居住？

在古希臘人出現(xiàn)之前，希臘是否曾經(jīng)有過一個古老的民族居住？