我們正在見證歷史：第一個不靠贏棋奪冠的圍棋冠軍，抗議未果，柯潔退賽，拒絕接受韓國裁判的莫名判罰。LG杯總決賽第三場比賽發(fā)生了什么？紅迪網(wǎng)熱議
What is happening in LG Finals Game 3??
譯文簡介
柯潔退賽，拒絕接受韓國裁判的判決，LG杯總決賽第三場比賽發(fā)生了什么？
史上第一個不靠贏棋奪冠的圍棋冠軍，他甚至擁有超越了人工智能的能力！
正文翻譯
tony_chen0227
Based on what I heard in the game mic before the adjournment, Ke Jie had concerns regarding the ruling being delivered on his opponent's time, giving him more time to think... so I believe the judges are discussing the next steps
根據(jù)我在休會前從比賽麥克風(fēng)中聽到的內(nèi)容，柯潔擔(dān)心裁決是在對手的時間內(nèi)做出的，這給了他更多的時間去思考……所以我相信裁判們正在討論下一步的措施
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Based on what I heard in the game mic before the adjournment, Ke Jie had concerns regarding the ruling being delivered on his opponent's time, giving him more time to think... so I believe the judges are discussing the next steps
根據(jù)我在休會前從比賽麥克風(fēng)中聽到的內(nèi)容，柯潔擔(dān)心裁決是在對手的時間內(nèi)做出的，這給了他更多的時間去思考……所以我相信裁判們正在討論下一步的措施
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
kaiasg
The AI had Ke Jie down 20 points, so if he gets DQ'd it probably won't change the result (of this game) but it'd be absolutely ridiculous to have Byun win the finals without legitimately winning a single game.
AI評估顯示柯潔落后 20 分，所以如果他被取消資格，可能不會改變（這場比賽的）結(jié)果，但如果卞相壹沒有真正贏得一場比賽就贏得決賽，那絕對是荒謬的。
The AI had Ke Jie down 20 points, so if he gets DQ'd it probably won't change the result (of this game) but it'd be absolutely ridiculous to have Byun win the finals without legitimately winning a single game.
AI評估顯示柯潔落后 20 分，所以如果他被取消資格，可能不會改變（這場比賽的）結(jié)果，但如果卞相壹沒有真正贏得一場比賽就贏得決賽，那絕對是荒謬的。
The broadcast had a few minutes back a picture of the stone placed on the side of the board but not in the bowl, so it looks like the same issue.
幾分鐘前，直播中有一張照片顯示，棋子被放在棋盤的一側(cè)，但沒有被放入碗中，所以看起來是和第二場比賽同樣的問題。
幾分鐘前，直播中有一張照片顯示，棋子被放在棋盤的一側(cè)，但沒有被放入碗中，所以看起來是和第二場比賽同樣的問題。
really really embarrassing for all involved this is not how you want the finals of your tournament to look.
這真的讓所有參賽選手和觀眾感到非常尷尬，這不是您期望的錦標(biāo)賽決賽所呈現(xiàn)的樣子。
這真的讓所有參賽選手和觀眾感到非常尷尬，這不是您期望的錦標(biāo)賽決賽所呈現(xiàn)的樣子。
Charles9527
No, Although Ke Jie is down in AI, he is making the board very messy and he have more time to set up the board and calculate for comeback in such complex situation while Sang-il does not have much time left for him to untangle this board, this is the only way for Ke Jie to make a comeback and he is quite good at this tactic when he is behind, but pausing the game give Sang-il A LOT of time to think this through and make this final very unfair.
不是的，雖然柯潔在AI評估上落后，但他把比賽局勢弄得復(fù)雜混亂，在如此復(fù)雜的情況下，他有更多的時間設(shè)置棋盤并計(jì)算反攻，而相壹沒有太多時間留給他解開這個棋局，這是柯潔反攻的唯一方法，他在落后時非常擅長這種戰(zhàn)術(shù)，但暫停比賽給了相壹更多時間去思考，讓這場決賽變得非常不公平。
No, Although Ke Jie is down in AI, he is making the board very messy and he have more time to set up the board and calculate for comeback in such complex situation while Sang-il does not have much time left for him to untangle this board, this is the only way for Ke Jie to make a comeback and he is quite good at this tactic when he is behind, but pausing the game give Sang-il A LOT of time to think this through and make this final very unfair.
不是的，雖然柯潔在AI評估上落后，但他把比賽局勢弄得復(fù)雜混亂，在如此復(fù)雜的情況下，他有更多的時間設(shè)置棋盤并計(jì)算反攻，而相壹沒有太多時間留給他解開這個棋局，這是柯潔反攻的唯一方法，他在落后時非常擅長這種戰(zhàn)術(shù)，但暫停比賽給了相壹更多時間去思考，讓這場決賽變得非常不公平。
Financial-Drummer825
Actually, Ke Jie just won the first round in a similar situation. It's highly possible to win at this rate because the rate simply assumes the player is an AI and won't make any mistakes.
其實(shí)，柯潔剛剛在類似情況下贏下第一局。以這個勝率評分獲勝的可能性很大，因?yàn)樵u分系統(tǒng)假設(shè)玩家是AI，不會犯任何錯誤。
Actually, Ke Jie just won the first round in a similar situation. It's highly possible to win at this rate because the rate simply assumes the player is an AI and won't make any mistakes.
其實(shí)，柯潔剛剛在類似情況下贏下第一局。以這個勝率評分獲勝的可能性很大，因?yàn)樵u分系統(tǒng)假設(shè)玩家是AI，不會犯任何錯誤。
Stunning-Cod3163
Cancel this stupid rule please, players should only focus on the board game itself
就應(yīng)該取消這個愚蠢的規(guī)則，選手應(yīng)該只關(guān)注圍棋比賽本身。
Cancel this stupid rule please, players should only focus on the board game itself
就應(yīng)該取消這個愚蠢的規(guī)則，選手應(yīng)該只關(guān)注圍棋比賽本身。
i-eat-omelettes
Not a go professional, just asking - can one blunder in go similar to chess? Because the AI would not be decisive then.
不是圍棋專業(yè)人士，只是想問一下——圍棋中會像國際象棋一樣犯錯嗎？因?yàn)楫?dāng)選手犯錯時AI評分系統(tǒng)就沒有決定價值了。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Not a go professional, just asking - can one blunder in go similar to chess? Because the AI would not be decisive then.
不是圍棋專業(yè)人士，只是想問一下——圍棋中會像國際象棋一樣犯錯嗎？因?yàn)楫?dāng)選手犯錯時AI評分系統(tǒng)就沒有決定價值了。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
AndyMarden
Maybe the tournament is trying to outdo the chess world and their Jeansgate. Such a load of nonsense, all of it.
也許錦標(biāo)賽是想超越國際象棋界和他們的“牛仔褲門事件”（譯者注：國際象棋衛(wèi)冕冠軍的芒格努斯·卡爾森因?yàn)榇┡Ｗ醒澏钦b被裁判判負(fù)）。這個比賽真是一塌糊涂。
Maybe the tournament is trying to outdo the chess world and their Jeansgate. Such a load of nonsense, all of it.
也許錦標(biāo)賽是想超越國際象棋界和他們的“牛仔褲門事件”（譯者注：國際象棋衛(wèi)冕冠軍的芒格努斯·卡爾森因?yàn)榇┡Ｗ醒澏钦b被裁判判負(fù)）。這個比賽真是一塌糊涂。
Charles9527
Although Ke Jie is down in AI, he is making the board very messy and he have more time to set up the board and calculate for comeback in such complex situation while Sang-il does not have much time left for him to untangle this board, this is the only way for Ke Jie to make a comeback and he is good at this tactic when he is behind, but pausing the game give Sang-il A LOT of time to think this through and make this final very unfair.
然柯潔在AI評估上落后，但他把比賽局勢弄得復(fù)雜混亂，在如此復(fù)雜的情況下，他有更多的時間設(shè)置棋盤并計(jì)算反攻，而相壹沒有太多時間留給他解開這個棋局，這是柯潔反攻的唯一方法，他在落后時非常擅長這種戰(zhàn)術(shù)，但暫停比賽給了相壹更多時間去思考，讓這場決賽變得非常不公平。
Although Ke Jie is down in AI, he is making the board very messy and he have more time to set up the board and calculate for comeback in such complex situation while Sang-il does not have much time left for him to untangle this board, this is the only way for Ke Jie to make a comeback and he is good at this tactic when he is behind, but pausing the game give Sang-il A LOT of time to think this through and make this final very unfair.
然柯潔在AI評估上落后，但他把比賽局勢弄得復(fù)雜混亂，在如此復(fù)雜的情況下，他有更多的時間設(shè)置棋盤并計(jì)算反攻，而相壹沒有太多時間留給他解開這個棋局，這是柯潔反攻的唯一方法，他在落后時非常擅長這種戰(zhàn)術(shù)，但暫停比賽給了相壹更多時間去思考，讓這場決賽變得非常不公平。
charisu81
We are witnessing history: The first winless champion, exceeding even AI capabilities
我們正在見證歷史：第一個不通過贏棋拿下的冠軍，（卞相壹）甚至擁有超越了人工智能的能力
We are witnessing history: The first winless champion, exceeding even AI capabilities
我們正在見證歷史：第一個不通過贏棋拿下的冠軍，（卞相壹）甚至擁有超越了人工智能的能力
LHMQ
Does anyone know what the rules were before they changed it? It’s not like this is the first time Ke Jie played in the LG cup, why does the rule cause so many problems for him now?
有誰知道修改前的規(guī)則是怎樣的嗎？柯潔又不是第一次打LG杯，為什么現(xiàn)在這個規(guī)則給他帶來了這么多麻煩？
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Does anyone know what the rules were before they changed it? It’s not like this is the first time Ke Jie played in the LG cup, why does the rule cause so many problems for him now?
有誰知道修改前的規(guī)則是怎樣的嗎？柯潔又不是第一次打LG杯，為什么現(xiàn)在這個規(guī)則給他帶來了這么多麻煩？
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Altruistic_Ad2077
The first round of this LG cup was held in May 2024. The new policy was published in November 2024. Previous LG cup did not apply this new policy.
本屆 LG 杯首輪比賽于 2024 年 5 月舉行。新規(guī)則于 2024 年 11 月發(fā)布。上屆 LG 杯并未采用這項(xiàng)新規(guī)則。
The first round of this LG cup was held in May 2024. The new policy was published in November 2024. Previous LG cup did not apply this new policy.
本屆 LG 杯首輪比賽于 2024 年 5 月舉行。新規(guī)則于 2024 年 11 月發(fā)布。上屆 LG 杯并未采用這項(xiàng)新規(guī)則。
LHMQ
I know, that’s why I asked what the rules were before this new one.
我懂了，所以我才問這個新規(guī)則之前的規(guī)則是什么。
I know, that’s why I asked what the rules were before this new one.
我懂了，所以我才問這個新規(guī)則之前的規(guī)則是什么。
Charles9527
as i remember, its penalty is just a simple verbal warning before nov
我記得，11月之前舊規(guī)則的處罰規(guī)定是只進(jìn)行簡單的口頭警告
as i remember, its penalty is just a simple verbal warning before nov
我記得，11月之前舊規(guī)則的處罰規(guī)定是只進(jìn)行簡單的口頭警告
tony_chen0227
I heard this in a different stream, but rumor has it that the Chinese and Korean Budak organizations have differing policies regarding this sort of stuff
我在另一個直播流中聽到了這一點(diǎn)，有小道消息說，中國和韓國的圍棋賽事組織者對類似事件有不同的政策
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
I heard this in a different stream, but rumor has it that the Chinese and Korean Budak organizations have differing policies regarding this sort of stuff
我在另一個直播流中聽到了這一點(diǎn)，有小道消息說，中國和韓國的圍棋賽事組織者對類似事件有不同的政策
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
In China, a rule infraction only is usually issued if the opponent proactively raises the concern.
在中國，通常只有在對手主動提出關(guān)切時才會觸發(fā)違規(guī)。
在中國，通常只有在對手主動提出關(guān)切時才會觸發(fā)違規(guī)。
However in Korea, I believe the judges have the authority to jump into the game and issue rulings without either player taking part.
然而在韓國，我相信裁判有權(quán)主動介入比賽在無需任何選手參與的情況下做出裁決。
然而在韓國，我相信裁判有權(quán)主動介入比賽在無需任何選手參與的情況下做出裁決。
LHMQ
I’ve never seen games being disrupted to this degree over something so trivial. This is beyond ridiculous.
我從未見過比賽因?yàn)槿绱宋⒉蛔愕赖氖虑槎艿饺绱藝?yán)重的干擾。這太荒謬了。
I’ve never seen games being disrupted to this degree over something so trivial. This is beyond ridiculous.
我從未見過比賽因?yàn)槿绱宋⒉蛔愕赖氖虑槎艿饺绱藝?yán)重的干擾。這太荒謬了。
ReplacementCold5503
In a soccer match, during the final minute, the trailing team's striker dribbled the ball into the penalty area on his own, but the referee stopped the game because his socks were not worn properly. Is this reasonable?
一場足球比賽，最后時刻，落后一方的前鋒獨(dú)自帶球進(jìn)入禁區(qū)，裁判卻以他的襪子穿得不對為由叫停了比賽，這合理嗎？
In a soccer match, during the final minute, the trailing team's striker dribbled the ball into the penalty area on his own, but the referee stopped the game because his socks were not worn properly. Is this reasonable?
一場足球比賽，最后時刻，落后一方的前鋒獨(dú)自帶球進(jìn)入禁區(qū)，裁判卻以他的襪子穿得不對為由叫停了比賽，這合理嗎？
EducationLast6270
I want to use another analogy, because it is about a person's long-standing habits, just like you are used to holding a fork in your left hand and a knife in your right hand,
我想再打個比方，因?yàn)檫@是一個人長期以來養(yǎng)成的習(xí)慣，就像你習(xí)慣左手拿叉，右手拿刀，
I want to use another analogy, because it is about a person's long-standing habits, just like you are used to holding a fork in your left hand and a knife in your right hand,
我想再打個比方，因?yàn)檫@是一個人長期以來養(yǎng)成的習(xí)慣，就像你習(xí)慣左手拿叉，右手拿刀，
But now there is a requirement that you must holding the knife in your left hand and the fork in your right hand and take a photo after every bite, and then you switch back to using the fork in your left hand when eating the next bite. If you make a mistake once during a dinner, it will be considered a violation.
但現(xiàn)在有規(guī)定，你必須左手拿刀，右手拿叉，每吃一口都要拍照，下一口吃的時候再換回左手拿叉。如果在吃飯的時候犯了一次錯誤，就算違規(guī)了。
但現(xiàn)在有規(guī)定，你必須左手拿刀，右手拿叉，每吃一口都要拍照，下一口吃的時候再換回左手拿叉。如果在吃飯的時候犯了一次錯誤，就算違規(guī)了。
The other person was trained to use a knife in his left hand and a fork in his right hand since he was a child.
而另一個比賽對手從小就被訓(xùn)練左手拿刀，右手拿叉。
而另一個比賽對手從小就被訓(xùn)練左手拿刀，右手拿叉。
tony_chen0227
XDDD that’s a brilliant analogy!
真是一個絕妙的比喻！
XDDD that’s a brilliant analogy!
真是一個絕妙的比喻！
Financial-Drummer825
The rules do not specify when the stone should be placed in the lid of the bowl
規(guī)則沒有規(guī)定何時將棋子放入碗蓋
The rules do not specify when the stone should be placed in the lid of the bowl
規(guī)則沒有規(guī)定何時將棋子放入碗蓋
If a player places the stone on the table, the opponent can clearly see it. Besides, it is ridiculous to say that professional players need to count the taken stones—NO ONE DOES
THAT
假設(shè)棋手將棋子放在桌子上，對手也可以清楚地看到。此外，說職業(yè)棋手需要計(jì)算所取棋子的數(shù)量是荒謬的——沒有人這樣做
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
THAT
假設(shè)棋手將棋子放在桌子上，對手也可以清楚地看到。此外，說職業(yè)棋手需要計(jì)算所取棋子的數(shù)量是荒謬的——沒有人這樣做
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Byun Sang-il also violated multiple rules, including but not limited to stopping the timer before making a move.
卞相壹還違反了多項(xiàng)規(guī)則，包括但不限于在下棋前停止計(jì)時器。
卞相壹還違反了多項(xiàng)規(guī)則，包括但不限于在下棋前停止計(jì)時器。
sadaharu2624
Just to rebut point 2: the Korean players do that. Many other players who play with territory scoring also do that
反駁第2點(diǎn)：只有韓國選手是這么做的。許多其他玩類似圍棋圈地?cái)?shù)子得分游戲的玩家也這么做
Just to rebut point 2: the Korean players do that. Many other players who play with territory scoring also do that
反駁第2點(diǎn)：只有韓國選手是這么做的。許多其他玩類似圍棋圈地?cái)?shù)子得分游戲的玩家也這么做
Financial-Drummer825
As far as I know: No one does that. Put this aside, the stone is crystal clear on the table.
據(jù)我所知：沒有人會這么做。拋開這個不談，棋子放在桌上是顯而易見的。
As far as I know: No one does that. Put this aside, the stone is crystal clear on the table.
據(jù)我所知：沒有人會這么做。拋開這個不談，棋子放在桌上是顯而易見的。
ihjiz
Do you really think it's crystal clear how many stones are captured when one stone is on the left side of the board, two stones are on the right side of the board, one stone is behind the stone container, and two stones are behind the timer? Why would territory-scoring players keep thinking about all the locations of captured stones if it's simple when they're all stored in one container? The rule totally makes sense in the Korean and Japanese scoring systems. I think the problem lies in the unnecessarily harsh penalty when the rule is violated.
你真的認(rèn)為當(dāng)一顆棋子在棋盤左側(cè)、兩顆棋子在棋盤右側(cè)、一顆棋子在棋子容器后面、兩顆棋子在計(jì)時器后面時，可以清楚地知道被吃掉的棋子數(shù)量嗎？如果所有棋子都存放在一個容器中，那么選手為什么要一直想著所有被吃掉的棋子的位置呢？這條規(guī)則在韓國和日本的計(jì)分系統(tǒng)中完全合理。我認(rèn)為問題在于違反這條規(guī)則時棋手受到了過于嚴(yán)苛的懲罰。
Do you really think it's crystal clear how many stones are captured when one stone is on the left side of the board, two stones are on the right side of the board, one stone is behind the stone container, and two stones are behind the timer? Why would territory-scoring players keep thinking about all the locations of captured stones if it's simple when they're all stored in one container? The rule totally makes sense in the Korean and Japanese scoring systems. I think the problem lies in the unnecessarily harsh penalty when the rule is violated.
你真的認(rèn)為當(dāng)一顆棋子在棋盤左側(cè)、兩顆棋子在棋盤右側(cè)、一顆棋子在棋子容器后面、兩顆棋子在計(jì)時器后面時，可以清楚地知道被吃掉的棋子數(shù)量嗎？如果所有棋子都存放在一個容器中，那么選手為什么要一直想著所有被吃掉的棋子的位置呢？這條規(guī)則在韓國和日本的計(jì)分系統(tǒng)中完全合理。我認(rèn)為問題在于違反這條規(guī)則時棋手受到了過于嚴(yán)苛的懲罰。
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The game of Go has been around for thousands of years, and there has never been a rule about this. What's the problem if I place the stone in the lid after a few minutes? Is a warning or even a reminder worse than just destroying the game? Why do they only point out Ke Jie's mistake but ignore Bian's?
圍棋這項(xiàng)運(yùn)動已經(jīng)存在了上千年，從來沒有關(guān)于提子擺放位置的規(guī)則。我將提子延遲幾分鐘后再放入棋蓋里，這有什么問題？警告甚至提醒比直接毀掉比賽更糟糕嗎？為什么他們只指出柯潔的錯誤，卻忽略了卞氏的錯誤？
對不起，我不是故意無禮。我只是想說這條規(guī)則有太多問題。它確實(shí)很荒謬。有太多有爭議的比賽，但我們無法改變結(jié)果。
Ridiculous? Just have a look at the game between Shin Jinseo and Ke Jie in the Samsung Cup. Ke Jie found a black stone in his white bowl and put it aside his other prisoners. Guess what, that particular stone was not captured and was there due to some error.
荒謬？看看三星杯上申真谞和柯潔之間的比賽就知道了。柯潔在他的白碗里發(fā)現(xiàn)了一顆黑棋，并把它放在了其他棋子旁邊。您猜怎么著兒，因?yàn)槟承╁e誤，那顆棋子并沒有被吃掉。
但重要的是，比賽以申真谞贏0.5目結(jié)束，當(dāng)然，如果裁判沒有干預(yù)的話，那顆棋子就改變了比賽結(jié)果。
所以，與其說“荒謬的規(guī)則”，不如試著學(xué)習(xí)圍棋的基本規(guī)則，尤其是如果你是柯潔這樣的頂級選手。
But how is that Ke Jie’s fault? With cameras and computers recording and counting every move, if the judge didn’t count the points correctly, why is Ke Jie the one being blamed?
但這怎么能怪柯潔呢？攝像機(jī)和電腦記錄和計(jì)算著每一步棋，如果裁判沒有正確計(jì)分，為什么柯潔要受到指責(zé)呢？
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
>> That's so Korea... As long as any situation is unfavorable to Koreans, they will try every possible way, even breaking the rules, to achieve victory. This is because Koreans never respect rules or their opponents; they only care about winning, even if it’s a stolen victory.
這就是韓國。。。只要任何情況對韓國人不利，他們就會想盡一切辦法，甚至打破規(guī)則，取得勝利。這是因?yàn)轫n國人從不尊重規(guī)則或?qū)κ?；他們只關(guān)心勝利，即使這是一場偷來的勝利。
我們應(yīng)該基于事實(shí)進(jìn)行批評，而不是基于謠言或偏見的仇恨。
>>就連卞相壹本人也多次違反這些所謂的規(guī)則，但柯杰既沒有提出異議，也沒有報(bào)告，組織者也沒有以任何方式解決這些違規(guī)行為。
It would be surprising if this were true. Do you have any proof?
如果你說的是事實(shí)那確實(shí)太令人吃驚了，你有證據(jù)嗎？
If you're looking for evidence, Game1 his sleeve moved the piece, Ke jie had no react of this, shortly he moved the piece back, no penalty. Game3 move 52, no penalty either.
如果你正在尋找證據(jù)，第一場比賽他的袖子移動了棋子，柯潔對此沒有反應(yīng)，很快他就把棋子移回來了，沒有處罰。第三場第52手，也沒有處罰。
對于韓國人來說，我所說的一切都是基于事實(shí)，而不是謠言或者基于偏見的仇恨。你以為全世界球迷能忘記世界杯韓國VS意大利的那場比賽？
再次申明，這種行為就很韓國。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://top-shui.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處