為什么阿拉伯文明從未從蒙古人的入侵中恢復(fù)過來？（二）
Why did the Arab civilization never recover from the Mongol invasions?
譯文簡(jiǎn)介
網(wǎng)友：因?yàn)閷?shí)際上，阿拉伯世界并沒有太多需要恢復(fù)的地方。蒙古人并未觸及阿拉伯世界的絕大部分地區(qū)。蒙古人征服的阿拉伯土地僅限于伊拉克和敘利亞，而真正遭受毀滅性打擊的主要是伊拉克......
正文翻譯
Lambert
Because there was nothing to recover from. The vast majority of Arab lands weren't even touched by the Mongols. The only Arab lands that were conquered by the Mongols were Iraq and Syria, and it was mostly in Iraq that the Mongols brought devastation.
I think what you really meant to ask was, “why did the Islamic civilization never recover from Mongol invasions?” The answer is Persia—the Heart and Mind of the Islamic world.
Persia was the most intellectually and culturally productive region in all of the Islamic world, and it was also the only Muslim land that was irrecoverably maimed by the Mongol scourge. By some estimates its population was reduced by 70-90% as a result of the Mongol invasions. Most cities in Persia were razed, most irrigation systems were destroyed, most libraries were set on fire, and most people either perished or turned into nomads. As a result, the once most civilized of Muslim lands was reduced to a mere shadow of its former self. The land that once produced Ibn Sina, al-Fārābī, Al-Biruni, and Al-Khwarizmi, barely had enough literate people to keep it running anymore, so the Mongol Khans had to import scribes and administrators from China.
This indirectly resulted in the decline of the Muslim world as a whole, including the “Arab civilization.”
因?yàn)閷?shí)際上，阿拉伯世界并沒有太多需要恢復(fù)的地方。蒙古人并未觸及阿拉伯世界的絕大部分地區(qū)。蒙古人征服的阿拉伯土地僅限于伊拉克和敘利亞，而真正遭受毀滅性打擊的主要是伊拉克。
Because there was nothing to recover from. The vast majority of Arab lands weren't even touched by the Mongols. The only Arab lands that were conquered by the Mongols were Iraq and Syria, and it was mostly in Iraq that the Mongols brought devastation.
I think what you really meant to ask was, “why did the Islamic civilization never recover from Mongol invasions?” The answer is Persia—the Heart and Mind of the Islamic world.
Persia was the most intellectually and culturally productive region in all of the Islamic world, and it was also the only Muslim land that was irrecoverably maimed by the Mongol scourge. By some estimates its population was reduced by 70-90% as a result of the Mongol invasions. Most cities in Persia were razed, most irrigation systems were destroyed, most libraries were set on fire, and most people either perished or turned into nomads. As a result, the once most civilized of Muslim lands was reduced to a mere shadow of its former self. The land that once produced Ibn Sina, al-Fārābī, Al-Biruni, and Al-Khwarizmi, barely had enough literate people to keep it running anymore, so the Mongol Khans had to import scribes and administrators from China.
This indirectly resulted in the decline of the Muslim world as a whole, including the “Arab civilization.”
因?yàn)閷?shí)際上，阿拉伯世界并沒有太多需要恢復(fù)的地方。蒙古人并未觸及阿拉伯世界的絕大部分地區(qū)。蒙古人征服的阿拉伯土地僅限于伊拉克和敘利亞，而真正遭受毀滅性打擊的主要是伊拉克。
我想你真正想問的是：“為什么伊斯蘭文明從未從蒙古入侵中恢復(fù)過來？”答案是波斯——伊斯蘭世界的心臟與靈魂。
波斯是整個(gè)伊斯蘭世界在智力和文化上最具創(chuàng)造力的地區(qū)，同時(shí)也是唯一一個(gè)因蒙古人的蹂躪而遭受不可挽回傷害的穆斯林土地。據(jù)估計(jì)，蒙古入侵導(dǎo)致波斯人口減少了70%到90%。波斯的大部分城市被夷為平地，灌溉系統(tǒng)被摧毀，圖書館被焚毀，大多數(shù)人要么喪生，要么淪為游牧者。結(jié)果，這片曾經(jīng)最文明的穆斯林土地，變成了昔日輝煌的蒼白影子。曾經(jīng)孕育了伊本·西那（Ibn Sina）、法拉比（al-Fārābī）、比魯尼（Al-Biruni）和阿爾·花剌子模的土地，如今連維持運(yùn)轉(zhuǎn)所需的識(shí)字人口都幾乎不復(fù)存在，以至于蒙古可汗不得不從中國(guó)引進(jìn)文書和行政人員。
這一情況間接導(dǎo)致了整個(gè)穆斯林世界的衰落，包括“阿拉伯文明”。
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By some estimates its population was reduced by 70-90% as a result of the Mongol invasions
By 50% according to most estimates, a few cities in Iranian Central Asia (like Bukhara, Samarkand, Merv, etc) had almost 90% of their population declined, that’s why those regions are Turkic now whereas they used to be Iranian before that
根據(jù)一些估計(jì)，由于蒙古入侵，其人口減少了70-90%。
根據(jù)大多數(shù)估計(jì)，人口減少了50%，伊朗中亞的一些城市（如布哈拉、撒馬爾罕、梅爾夫等）的人口幾乎減少了90%，這就是為什么這些地區(qū)現(xiàn)在是突厥化的，而在此之前它們是伊朗化的。
OMG! Total demographic change. I believe significant portion of them are descendants of Changez Khan.
天??！完全的人口結(jié)構(gòu)變化。我相信他們中有很大一部分是成吉思汗的后裔。
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It is really crazy when you think about it.
A significant portion of Afghanistan is tajik and these Afghan tajiks were not as badly affected by Mongols so they look like standard Iranic peoples.
However if you go to Tajikistan the country of tajiks, only southern people look Iranic northern people have slant eyes and look turkic while middle part people look mix of both.
This is also why in Indic records early central asian invaders in India were described as standard caucasoid Iranic peoples with brownish hair thick beards and yellowish fair to bronze skin while later central asians like Mughals are described having less facial hair and slant eyes.
仔細(xì)想想，這確實(shí)令人難以置信。
阿富汗的很大一部分人口是塔吉克人，而這些阿富汗塔吉克人并未受到蒙古人的嚴(yán)重破壞，因此他們看起來像標(biāo)準(zhǔn)的伊朗人種。
然而，如果你去塔吉克斯坦——塔吉克人的國(guó)家，只有南部的人看起來像伊朗人，北部的人則有斜眼，看起來像突厥人，而中部的人則是兩者的混合。
這也是為什么在印度的歷史記錄中，早期入侵印度的中亞人被描述為標(biāo)準(zhǔn)的伊朗人種，擁有棕色頭發(fā)、濃密的胡須和淺黃到古銅色的皮膚，而后來入侵的中亞人（如莫臥兒人）則被描述為胡須較少、眼睛斜長(zhǎng)。
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most of the people living in samarkand merv bukhara were tajiks
居住在撒馬爾罕、梅爾夫和布哈拉的大多數(shù)人都是塔吉克人。
Incorrect. There are different people existing in Iranic regions. The Turkics were always carrying Mongloid genes.
不正確。伊朗地區(qū)存在不同的民族。突厥人一直攜帶蒙古人種的基因。
The east and center of Persia are somehow mixed with mongols, the north and the west remained approximately intact due to the fact that mongols invaded the main cities of persia and mountainous regions were not affected by both arabs and mongols.
波斯的東部和中部在某種程度上與蒙古人混合，而北部和西部大致保持原樣，因?yàn)槊晒湃巳肭至瞬ㄋ沟闹饕鞘?，而山區(qū)則未受阿拉伯人和蒙古人的影響。
Compare it with Hindus who generate hate out of history still they are 80% in population.
Musli... most of the civilization destroyed during Mongol invasion but still they don't hate them. In fact you can see lot of Musli... has “Khan” as there title. Please learn.
相比之下，印度教徒從歷史中產(chǎn)生仇恨，但他們?nèi)匀徽既丝诘?0%。穆斯林在蒙古入侵期間大部分文明被摧毀，但他們?nèi)匀徊缓廾晒湃?。事?shí)上，你可以看到很多穆斯林以“汗”為稱號(hào)。請(qǐng)學(xué)習(xí)一下。
Bukhara and Samarkand were mostly Tajik speaking even some 150 years ago. Assimilation happened.
即使在150年前，布哈拉和撒馬爾罕也主要是說塔吉克語的。后來同化發(fā)生了。
they are still Tajik cities, in general Uzbekistan has about 30% Tajiks
它們?nèi)匀皇撬顺鞘?，總體而言，烏茲別克斯坦大約有30%的塔吉克人。
Why europeans support tajiks? Because of stupid hitler idea like aryan? Then nonsense
This lands are not tajik when Turks conquered this areas it was another iranian peoples like sogidans and tocharians
Asimilation is everywhere dont blame on Turks
persified kurds afghans mongolized Turks manchurians and arabization on greek and armenian russians are asimilated varangian vikigs and mixed groups of ural-altai population also there is a europeanized on Native americans and Aztecs
為什么歐洲人支持塔吉克人？是因?yàn)橄裣Ｌ乩漳菢拥摹把爬踩恕庇薮烙^念嗎？這完全是胡說八道。
這些土地在突厥人征服之前并不是塔吉克人的，而是其他伊朗民族（如粟特人和吐火羅人）的居住地。
同化現(xiàn)象無處不在，不要怪罪突厥人。
波斯化的庫爾德人、阿富汗人，蒙古化的突厥人、滿族人，阿拉伯化的希臘人和亞美尼亞人，俄羅斯人則是同化了瓦蘭吉亞維京人并與烏拉爾-阿爾泰人口混合的群體。此外，還有歐洲化的美洲原住民和阿茲特克人。
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But even though the Golden Age never happened against atlis Muslim continued to prospere and also gain advancement.
盡管黃金時(shí)代沒有再次出現(xiàn)，穆斯林仍然繼續(xù)繁榮并取得進(jìn)步。
Well I agree with the devastation caused by Mongols in the Persian world and it did even happened to the edges in Anatolia and western India where Konya, Multan and Lahore were sheltering Persian refugees and had home grown Persian speaking elite. The effect on Arab world can not be underestimated as Both Iraq and Syria were centres of Arab world in that era. Baghdad long passed it’s hey days by then, was still one of the biggest cities in the world and renowned centre of knowledge and learning. The agricultural lands turned into deserts wherever Mongol went. One more point is that overall Mongol devastation was not just initial carnage but later bad governance, countless Mongol civil wars and finally initial Timurid carnage though later Timurid era was a brief stable period before the decades long instability and civil wars from where Safavid, Ottomans, Mughal and Uzbek emerged to shape the early Modern era.
我同意蒙古人對(duì)波斯世界的破壞，這種破壞甚至波及到了安納托利亞和印度西部邊緣地區(qū)，科尼亞、木爾坦和拉合爾等地曾收留波斯難民，并培養(yǎng)出了本土的波斯語精英。蒙古人對(duì)阿拉伯世界的影響也不容小覷，因?yàn)橐晾撕蛿⒗麃喪钱?dāng)時(shí)阿拉伯世界的中心。巴格達(dá)雖然早已過了鼎盛時(shí)期，但仍然是世界上最大的城市之一，也是著名的知識(shí)和學(xué)術(shù)中心。蒙古人所到之處，農(nóng)田變成了沙漠。另外，蒙古的破壞不僅僅是初期的屠殺，還包括后來的糟糕治理、無數(shù)的蒙古內(nèi)戰(zhàn)，以及帖木兒初期的屠殺（盡管帖木兒后期有一段短暫的穩(wěn)定時(shí)期），隨后是長(zhǎng)達(dá)數(shù)十年的動(dòng)蕩和內(nèi)戰(zhàn)，最終催生了薩法維、奧斯曼、莫臥兒和烏茲別克等政權(quán)，塑造了近代早期的格局。
Baghdad was also a major center of learning that got devastated.
巴格達(dá)也是一個(gè)重要的學(xué)術(shù)中心，但遭到了毀滅。
And Damascus & Aleppo too. We had evidence and please read Ahmad ibn Arabshah
大馬士革和阿勒頗也是如此。我們有證據(jù)，請(qǐng)閱讀艾哈邁德·伊本·阿拉布沙的著作。
Mongols really harmed Persia, the cities were burned to the ground and it took 100 years for Persia to start a little bit recovering from the massacres. Only southern cities were spared, it was i guess too hot for the mongols to go south.
蒙古人確實(shí)對(duì)波斯造成了嚴(yán)重傷害，城市被燒成灰燼，波斯花了100年時(shí)間才從大屠殺中開始稍微恢復(fù)。只有南部城市幸免于難，我猜是因?yàn)閷?duì)蒙古人來說南部太熱了。
This is a good answer but doesn’t state the full picture. Plenty of Persian cities such as Shiraz was spared as they submitted to Mongols. And, Ottomans were quite advanced, and where able to conquer a large chunk of Balkans + Eastern Europe and put end to Roman/Byzantine Empire. Ottomans were on-par with much of Western Europe until late 16th century. Ottomans had schools, universities. Sure! They didn’t make significant advancement, but they made many incremental innovations (cannons/war-fare, physics, astronomy) to stay on par.
The turning point imo was from 17th century it was Britain and the industrial revolution it led that accelerated much of Western Europe, which was picked up later by France, Italy etc. Ottomans never picked it up and much of Muslim lands fell behind.
這個(gè)回答很好，但并沒有完全說明問題。許多波斯城市（如設(shè)拉子）因向蒙古人投降而得以幸免。此外，奧斯曼帝國(guó)非常先進(jìn)，他們征服了巴爾干半島和東歐的大部分地區(qū)，并終結(jié)了羅馬/拜占庭帝國(guó)。直到16世紀(jì)末，奧斯曼帝國(guó)與西歐大部分地區(qū)不相上下。奧斯曼帝國(guó)擁有學(xué)校和大學(xué)。當(dāng)然，他們并沒有取得重大突破，但他們通過許多漸進(jìn)式創(chuàng)新（如火炮/戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)技術(shù)、物理學(xué)、天文學(xué)）保持了與西方的同步。
在我看來，轉(zhuǎn)折點(diǎn)出現(xiàn)在17世紀(jì)，英國(guó)和其引領(lǐng)的工業(yè)革命加速了西歐的發(fā)展，隨后法國(guó)、意大利等國(guó)家也跟上了步伐。而奧斯曼帝國(guó)未能抓住這一機(jī)遇，導(dǎo)致大部分穆斯林地區(qū)落后。
Is that why do so many areas look Asian (I know it’s “Asia”), like in Samarkhand and Bukhara?
I know they are turkic, but they look very Asian to the untrained eye.
這就是為什么這么多地區(qū)看起來像亞洲（我知道這是“亞洲”），比如撒馬爾罕和布哈拉？
我知道他們是突厥人，但在外行人看來，他們非常像亞洲人。
Original Turkic people came from East China
原始突厥人來自中國(guó)東部。
Why americanz looks like european? Because they are came from scandinavia
為什么美國(guó)人看起來像歐洲人？因?yàn)樗麄儊碜运箍暗募{維亞。
They are from Caucasus, while Turks are suspected to be from East China
他們來自高加索，而突厥人被認(rèn)為來自中國(guó)東部。
I dont believe the Mongols could have managed this alone. They were using technology and expertise of their Chinese slaves for much of their conquests.
Mongols may have GENO....d 90% of West Asia and Central Asia but it has had zero effect as those who remained repopulated the regions.
All and all they provided nothing but destruction and gave absolutely nothing positive for humanity. And thats why they live in the desert plains with a population of 3 million and half of their lands controlled by China and Russia.
我不相信蒙古人單憑自己就能做到這一切。他們?cè)谡鞣^程中大量依賴中國(guó)奴隸的技術(shù)和專業(yè)知識(shí)。
蒙古人可能在西亞和中亞屠殺了90%的人口，但這并沒有產(chǎn)生長(zhǎng)期影響，因?yàn)樾掖嬲咧匦路毖芰诉@些地區(qū)。
總的來說，蒙古人除了破壞之外，沒有為人類帶來任何積極的東西。這也是為什么他們?nèi)缃裆钤谌丝趦H300萬的沙漠平原上，一半的土地被中國(guó)和俄羅斯控制。
Mongols may have GENO....d 90% of West Asia and Central Asia but it has had zero effect as those who remained repopulated the regions.
Some of them eventually got repopulated, but not all, and that was itself a process that took centuries. Iran's population never again reached its pre-Mongol level until the 20th century. A lot of the destroyed cities were permanently abandoned, such as the legendary cities of Estakhr, Susa, and Merv. Who knows how many more Rumis and Khwarizmis would’ve risen out of the millions the Mongols slaughtered, or their children, or their children’s children. I don't think I would call that “zero effect.”
蒙古人可能在西亞和中亞屠殺了90%的人口，但這并沒有產(chǎn)生長(zhǎng)期影響，因?yàn)樾掖嬲咧匦路毖芰诉@些地區(qū)。
其中一些地區(qū)確實(shí)重新繁衍了，但并非全部，而且這一過程本身花費(fèi)了幾個(gè)世紀(jì)。伊朗的人口直到20世紀(jì)才恢復(fù)到蒙古入侵前的水平。許多被摧毀的城市被永久遺棄，例如傳奇的伊斯塔赫爾、蘇薩和梅爾夫。誰知道如果蒙古人沒有屠殺那數(shù)百萬人，他們的子孫后代中會(huì)誕生多少像魯米和阿爾·花剌子模那樣的天才。我不認(rèn)為這能被稱為“零影響”。
“Iran's population never again reached its pre-Mongol level until the 20th century.”
Depend on the source. From the 1978 estimate by McEvedy and Jones, Iran had recovered to its pre-Mongol population of 5 million by 1600, stayed at 5 million until 1700 and afterward rose over 5 million, higher than any number for Iran before 1600. Some estimate may put it higher than 5 million in 1700.
Istakhr was massacred by the Arabs back in the 7th century and gradually lose importance afterward, it was further reduced to a village more than a century before Genghis.
Neither Susa or Merv were abandoned because of the Mongol massacre and neither were Kunya-Urgench and Bamiyan. Note that abandoning cities in Central Asia was a thing since thousands of years (Gonur Depe for example) before the Mongols. As some cities got abandoned, the other rose to prominence. Bukhara, for example, reached its biggest pre-modern size after the Mongols and under the Uzbek, which was a Mongol offshoot.
“伊朗的人口直到20世紀(jì)才恢復(fù)到蒙古入侵前的水平?！?br /> 這取決于資料來源。根據(jù)McEvedy和Jones 1978年的估計(jì)，伊朗在1600年時(shí)已恢復(fù)到蒙古入侵前的500萬人口，并在1700年之后超過了500萬，高于1600年之前的任何數(shù)字。有些估計(jì)甚至認(rèn)為1700年時(shí)伊朗的人口超過了500萬。
伊斯塔赫爾在7世紀(jì)時(shí)被阿拉伯人屠殺，之后逐漸失去重要性，在成吉思汗之前一個(gè)多世紀(jì)，它已經(jīng)變成了一個(gè)小村莊。
蘇薩和梅爾夫并沒有因?yàn)槊晒湃说耐罋⒍贿z棄，庫尼亞-烏爾根奇和巴米揚(yáng)也是如此。需要注意的是，中亞城市的廢棄現(xiàn)象在蒙古人之前已經(jīng)存在了數(shù)千年（例如戈努爾德佩）。隨著一些城市被廢棄，其他城市崛起。例如，布哈拉在蒙古人之后和烏茲別克人統(tǒng)治下達(dá)到了其前現(xiàn)代時(shí)期的最大規(guī)模，而烏茲別克人正是蒙古人的后裔。
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mongols are mongolicizied Turks thats why they help Turks
Khwarezmians are also Turks and ghenghis khans wants allied with them but they killed their mans and trigered borjigin dynasty
ghenghis khans actually impresed jalal ad din Khwarezm and he wished his child be like him (greatest commender)
Funfact:mongolicizied mongols attack Khwarezmia and hates and kills Musli... but after their elite become absolutley Turkified and Muslim
蒙古人是蒙古化的突厥人，這就是為什么他們幫助突厥人。
花剌子模人也是突厥人，成吉思汗曾想與他們結(jié)盟，但他們殺死了成吉思汗的使者，從而引發(fā)了孛兒只斤王朝的憤怒。
成吉思汗實(shí)際上對(duì)花剌子模的賈拉爾·丁印象深刻，他希望自己的孩子能像他一樣（偉大的指揮官）。
有趣的事實(shí)：蒙古化的蒙古人攻擊花剌子模，仇恨并殺害穆斯林，但后來他們的精英完全突厥化并成為穆斯林。
Yes and also they lost a lot of knowledge and beautiful cities with libraries and crazy architecture. It had effect. When ibn battuta the traveler visited Persia, he heard of it’s wonders before, he was devastated to see what mongols did. He said there was nothing, Isfahan was burnt to the ground and only Shiraz glory remained so he went south and visitez Hormuz.
是的，他們還失去了許多知識(shí)和美麗的城市，包括圖書館和驚人的建筑。這產(chǎn)生了影響。當(dāng)旅行者伊本·白圖泰訪問波斯時(shí)，他之前聽說過它的奇跡，但看到蒙古人的所作所為后，他感到震驚。他說那里一無所有，伊斯法罕被燒成灰燼，只有設(shè)拉子的榮耀留存，所以他南下并訪問了霍爾木茲。
You can't kill 90 percent of population. That's just a wild exaggeration. Of one city, maybe, but its also very unlikely. Urbanisation at those times reached perhaps a few percentage points. Vast majority lived in the country. Even if half the townspeople were massacred that won't strongly affect the total population.
你不可能殺死90%的人口。這只是夸張的說法。對(duì)于一個(gè)城市來說，也許有可能，但也非常不可能。當(dāng)時(shí)的城市化率可能只有幾個(gè)百分點(diǎn)。絕大多數(shù)人生活在農(nóng)村。即使一半的城鎮(zhèn)居民被屠殺，也不會(huì)對(duì)總?cè)丝诋a(chǎn)生重大影響。
Exactly.
確實(shí)如此。
The Mongols certainly used a lot of Allies. Even China was largely conquered by Chinese for them.
As for their net contribution, for a long time now it had been considered sort of positive albeit in a very macro sense (“they made the modern world”) but the hype is starting to wear off a bit.
蒙古人確實(shí)使用了許多盟友。甚至中國(guó)也主要是由中國(guó)人為他們征服的。
至于他們的凈貢獻(xiàn)，長(zhǎng)期以來，盡管在宏觀意義上被認(rèn)為是積極的（“他們創(chuàng)造了現(xiàn)代世界”），但這種炒作開始逐漸消退。
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I think there are quite strong evidences that the Turkic allies of Mongols and, much less so, Mongol tribes themselves (Turkified over time) did increase their already large numbers in much of Central Asia. Kazakhstan in particular seems to have been much less “Northeast Asian-shifted” until the late 1st millennium A.D., and similar but less dramatic shifts also happened elsewhere. Turkic migration to Anatolia, changing the demographics and genetic structure of what are now Turkey and Azerbaijan, also seem to have accelerated. So clearly there was a profound demographic impact in some areas, though mostly by Turkic people, not by Mongolic ones.
我認(rèn)為有相當(dāng)有力的證據(jù)表明，蒙古人的突厥盟友（隨著時(shí)間的推移，蒙古部落本身也逐漸突厥化）確實(shí)在中亞大部分地區(qū)增加了他們本已龐大的人口。特別是哈薩克斯坦，直到公元第一個(gè)千年末期，似乎“東北亞化”的程度要低得多，其他地方也發(fā)生了類似但不太劇烈的變化。突厥人向安納托利亞的遷移，似乎也加速改變了現(xiàn)今土耳其和阿塞拜疆的人口結(jié)構(gòu)和基因結(jié)構(gòu)。因此，顯然在某些地區(qū)產(chǎn)生了深遠(yuǎn)的人口影響，盡管主要是突厥人，而不是蒙古人。
Mongols weren't nearly as populous enough to be able to cause significant demographic changes anywhere in the world. The destruction that they brought, however, did clear the way for the Turks. Sort of like how the hyenas feast after the lion is done with its hunt.
蒙古人的人口遠(yuǎn)不足以在世界任何地方引起重大的人口變化。然而，他們帶來的破壞確實(shí)為突厥人掃清了道路。有點(diǎn)像獅子完成狩獵后，鬣狗開始享用盛宴。
0 effect on those who remained? You have no clue. If you destroy things like irrigation, cities, trade routes. It doesnt matter if youre albert Einstein, you have nothing to work with to improve your land.
You want to rebuild your city? Oh there arent enough people to do that
You want more people? There isnt enough food for that
You want to train people to rebuild farmland? Sorry all your books are destroyed and the people who knew how are dead.
This is a cycle that takes centuries to fix itself. How are you going to raise money when everything's destroyed? Other cities are going to rise up and replace you, how will you compete with them? Thats why depopulation and infrastructure destructionis so evil. Not only is it GENO..... The survivors are unable to fix anything
對(duì)幸存者沒有影響？你完全不了解。如果你摧毀了灌溉系統(tǒng)、城市和貿(mào)易路線，即使你是阿爾伯特·愛因斯坦，你也無法改善你的土地。
你想重建你的城市？哦，沒有足夠的人來做這件事。
你想要更多的人？沒有足夠的食物來養(yǎng)活他們。
你想培訓(xùn)人們重建農(nóng)田？抱歉，你所有的書籍都被毀了，知道怎么做的人也都死了。
這是一個(gè)需要幾個(gè)世紀(jì)才能自我修復(fù)的循環(huán)。當(dāng)一切都被摧毀時(shí)，你如何籌集資金？其他城市將會(huì)崛起并取代你，你如何與它們競(jìng)爭(zhēng)？這就是為什么人口減少和基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施破壞如此邪惡。這不僅是種族滅絕，幸存者也無法修復(fù)任何東西。
It was quite obvious the genocidal act by the Mongols across Central and Western Asia was meant to wipe out entire peoples but it didn't have any effect as I stated since the populations of these lands have substantially repopulated their regions.
很明顯，蒙古人在中亞和西亞的種族滅絕行為旨在消滅整個(gè)民族，但正如我所說，這并沒有產(chǎn)生任何影響，因?yàn)檫@些地區(qū)的人口已經(jīng)大幅恢復(fù)。
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It was the other way around: only after the establishment of the Ilkanate and adoption of catapult technology were the Mongols able to break the siege of the southern Song capital. The Mongols decided to go west to conquer the Steppes of Central Asia and the Abbasid Caliphate on horseback before doub…
事實(shí)恰恰相反：只有在伊爾汗國(guó)建立并采用投石機(jī)技術(shù)后，蒙古人才能夠攻破南宋首都的圍困。蒙古人決定西征，征服中亞草原和阿拔斯王朝，然后再……
Inadvertently they might have stopped complete Islamisation of China. That is one positive.
無意中，他們可能阻止了中國(guó)的完全伊斯蘭化。這是一個(gè)積極的影響。
no instead they brought Musli... into China
不，相反，他們把穆斯林帶入了中國(guó)。
If I may also add, the Mongols also killed off many Christian & Jewish populations throughout Persia and the Middle East which also held highly educated populations
如果我可以補(bǔ)充的話，蒙古人還殺害了波斯和中東的許多基督教和猶太教人口，這些人口中也包括許多受過高等教育的人。
The one that you’re saying is Timur.
你所說的那個(gè)人是帖木兒。
Timur was part of it but it was the Mongols as well
帖木兒是其中的一部分，但蒙古人也是。
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Both Turkic and Iranic peoples were massacred in West and Central Asia. Khwarazmian Empire was a Turko-Persian empire that tried to defy Mongols. So to claim only Persians were massacred is a farce. Oghuz Turks were massacred just as badly.
突厥人和伊朗人在中亞和西亞都被屠殺?；ㄘ葑幽５蹏?guó)是一個(gè)試圖反抗蒙古人的突厥-波斯帝國(guó)。因此，聲稱只有波斯人被屠殺是荒謬的。烏古斯突厥人同樣遭到了嚴(yán)重的屠殺。
I don't remember ever claiming that only Persians were massacred by the Mongols.
我不記得曾經(jīng)聲稱只有波斯人被蒙古人屠殺。
Many of oghuz turks could save their life thanks to nomadic tradition and started mass migration to Anatolia to survive but Iranians and Arabs of Mesopotamia and Levant suffered greatly because they couldn’t run so far.
許多烏古斯突厥人由于游牧傳統(tǒng)得以保全性命，并開始大規(guī)模遷移到安納托利亞以求生存，但美索不達(dá)米亞和黎凡特的伊朗人和阿拉伯人因?yàn)闊o法跑那么遠(yuǎn)而遭受了巨大的苦難。
Wrong. Timur slaughtered 40,000 ottomans in Ankara. He was a direct descendant of Genghis khan.
錯(cuò)了。帖木兒在安卡拉屠殺了4萬名奧斯曼人。他是成吉思汗的直系后裔。
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I was talking about Genghis khan itself and his immediate family not Timur.
我說的是成吉思汗本人和他的直系家族，而不是帖木兒。
We are talking about Mongol invasions in West Asia. So Timur counts as being apart of this!
我們討論的是蒙古人在西亞的入侵。因此，帖木兒也算作其中的一部分！
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well interesting one fun thing is Turkish nationalists praise him and Genghis khan while in Ottomans times mongols were hated by all turks in ottoman territory. Biggest damage that mongols cause to Iran was agricultural destruction.
有趣的是，土耳其民族主義者贊揚(yáng)帖木兒和成吉思汗，而在奧斯曼帝國(guó)時(shí)期，蒙古人被奧斯曼領(lǐng)土上的所有突厥人憎恨。蒙古人對(duì)伊朗造成的最大破壞是農(nóng)業(yè)的毀滅。
Pan-Turkists are an embarrassment to their ancestors by praising those they massacred their ancestors. Show the Turkish nationalists this:
Ottoman Empire Sultan Bayezid I held captive by Timur after the destruction of Ankara
泛突厥主義者通過贊揚(yáng)那些屠殺他們祖先的人，給他們的祖先帶來了恥辱。給土耳其民族主義者看看這個(gè)：
奧斯曼帝國(guó)蘇丹巴耶濟(jì)德一世在安卡拉被毀后被帖木兒俘虜。
but again he released all of his sons from his prison who latter became king
但他再次釋放了他所有的兒子，他們后來成為了國(guó)王。
Also there are plenty of Iranian nomadic peoples, especially during that time that fought and many like Lurs & Kurds that held onto control their regions.
此外，還有許多伊朗游牧民族，特別是在那個(gè)時(shí)期，他們進(jìn)行了戰(zhàn)斗，許多像盧爾人和庫爾德人這樣的民族控制著他們的地區(qū)。
Not sure if iran is Arab they came from Persian ethnicitis
不確定伊朗是否是阿拉伯人，他們來自波斯民族。
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Great answer
and I think the question means the Islamic civilization that MOSTLY used Arabic as the main language in all fields of knowledge and science, so lots of people thus use Arab or Arabic civilization as a synonym of Islamic civilization
most scholars in or from Persia during the golden age of Islam, had Arabic names with Arabic naming systems and wrote mostly in Arabic language, and you can barely identify if they were Arabs or other ethnicities, and i do confess, persian people were the heart of Arabic/Islamic civilization, they even contributed the most to Arabic language itself, so peace be upon them
很好的回答
我認(rèn)為這個(gè)問題指的是伊斯蘭文明，它在所有知識(shí)和科學(xué)領(lǐng)域主要使用阿拉伯語作為主要語言，因此許多人將阿拉伯或阿拉伯文明作為伊斯蘭文明的同義詞。
在伊斯蘭黃金時(shí)代，波斯或來自波斯的學(xué)者大多使用阿拉伯名字和阿拉伯命名系統(tǒng)，并且主要用阿拉伯語寫作，你幾乎無法分辨他們是阿拉伯人還是其他民族，我承認(rèn)，波斯人是阿拉伯/伊斯蘭文明的核心，他們甚至對(duì)阿拉伯語本身貢獻(xiàn)最大，所以愿他們安息。
And the Persians, by murdering Mongol ambassadors and merchants and sheltering the rebellious Khan of the Volga Bulgars, brought it on themselves. This does seem to be a repeating theme in Muslim history.
波斯人通過殺害蒙古使者和商人，并庇護(hù)伏爾加保加利亞的反叛可汗，給自己帶來了災(zāi)難。這似乎是穆斯林歷史中反復(fù)出現(xiàn)的主題。
I really don't think that a massive empire of many millions of people deserved wholesale slaughter, pillage, and rape because a local functionary robbed a trade mission and the Sultan killed emissaries sent demanding him to be turned over. Retribution was certainly justified for that, but there is very little that could ever have justified what Temujin did in response.
我真的不認(rèn)為一個(gè)擁有數(shù)百萬人口的龐大帝國(guó)應(yīng)該因?yàn)橐粋€(gè)地方官員搶劫了一個(gè)貿(mào)易使團(tuán)，蘇丹殺死了要求交出他（地方官員）的使者而遭受大規(guī)模的屠殺、掠奪和強(qiáng)奸。報(bào)復(fù)當(dāng)然是合理的，但幾乎沒有什么能證明鐵木真的回應(yīng)是合理的。
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Most of cities and towns were spared, those that were wize enough to surrender. But some were subjected to “shock and awe”.
大多數(shù)城市和城鎮(zhèn)得以幸免，那些明智地選擇投降的城市。但有些城市遭受了“震懾和敬畏”。
In the 13th century the murder of an Ambassador was considered considered a declaration of war.
在13世紀(jì)，殺害大使被視為宣戰(zhàn)。
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Your reply resembles typical speeches we hear from the west through their colonial history up until very recently (like with the war against Iraq) and Israel right now. Let's collectively punish a whole population for whatever reason. I wonder where this genocidal mindset comes from.
你的回復(fù)類似于我們從西方殖民歷史中聽到的典型演講，直到最近（比如對(duì)伊拉克的戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)）和現(xiàn)在的以色列。讓我們以任何理由集體懲罰整個(gè)民族。我想知道這種種族滅絕的心態(tài)從何而來。
please read history in details rather than using hate
請(qǐng)?jiān)敿?xì)閱讀歷史，而不是使用仇恨。
Khorezm Shakhs were Turks, not Persians or Iranians. They considered Mongols to be steppe conquerors rival to themselves who would dislodge them and replace them as rulers of taxable sedentary folks. So it was more like “beat them or perish”.
花剌子模的沙阿（波斯語里面的皇帝頭銜）是突厥人，而不是波斯人或伊朗人。他們認(rèn)為蒙古人是草原征服者，是他們的競(jìng)爭(zhēng)對(duì)手，會(huì)取代他們成為可征稅的定居民族的統(tǒng)治者。所以這更像是“打敗他們或滅亡”。
The rulers who did this themselves were turkic but savage mongols punished Iranians for it!!!!
做這些事的統(tǒng)治者自己是突厥人，但野蠻的蒙古人卻因此懲罰了伊朗人！?。?！